Fishing

[kalos72]

So you all know, I am trying to run a 2k campaign in Manhattan where my group sort of sets up shop to take over.

So with that in mind...

My problem is calculating food production numbers...most publications give Manhattan alone a population of over 100k.

I am having some measurable problems with trying to figure the math out to feed 100k people. Or even how they can feed themselves.

Have any of you worked out details on fishing fleets/food production numbers and such

[Webstral]

I've never done the math. My impression is that 100k people are being fed a) poorly, b) by eating everything in sight, and c) with as much trade to communities elsewhere as possible. I'll be the first to admit that the 100k population figure requires a bit of suspension of disbelief. On the other hand, I'm claiming in "Thunder Empire" that 400,000 can be supported with local resources in Cochise, Santa Cruz, and Pima Counties. I'd be willing to consider almost any plausible explanation--if for no other reason than to support the official history. (I read the canon post)

Webstral

[kato13]

Agricultural census for 1997

http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Publications/1997/index.asp

New York Agriculture county breakdown for 1997

http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Publications/1997/Vol_1_Chapter_2_County_Tables/New_York/ny_chp2.pdf

Arizona

http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Publications/1997/Vol_1_Chapter_2_County_Tables/Arizona/az_chp2.pdf

Won't help for fishing except to tell you that New York state has a few fish farms, but might help with agricultural production for neighboring counties.

[Mohoender]

If Manhattan was spared so was Long Island. At time, I had done some math and came up with a final figure of about 400k survivors with 100k in Manhattan and the remaining ones in Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and Long Island.

Long Island can be turned in farmland (actually it still has several farmers I think). Fishing is important of course and I can imagine the people in the area trading with the fishermen of Rhode Island (or fighting with them over fishing areas). Of course, central park had been turned into farmlands.

Feeding would be poor and unequal (especially because of the gangs) but I think that it can work.

What do you think Actually I have never seen anything on Long Island and I have the feeling it would play a major role.

[kato13]

Queens, Kings (Brooklyn),Nassau and Suffolk counties make up Long Island.

Kings county has 8 farms covering 8 acres.
Nassau county has 55 farms covering 1,390 acres.
Queens county has 2 farms covering 4 acres.
Suffolk county has 606 farms covering 35,858 acres.

[Legbreaker]

They're not farms, they're backyard vegetable plots!

100k seems very excessive to me, but as has been posted, it's possible I think provided the inhabitants aren't picky about what they eat. Rats, dogs, cats, pigeons, you name it would all see duty on the dinner plate.
Anywhere something can grow, somebody is almost certainly trying to grow something. Even in dank, dark cellars! (mushrooms)
Of course we can't forget parks, vacant blocks, rooftops and so on. Hydroponic systems are likely to be fairly widespread and especially useful for the winter months if set up indoors. Indoor (even outdoor) swimming pools could be converted into fish ponds (food, not gold).

So, I don't think food production is likely to be on a large scale, but just about everyone will be involved in it somehow. Yes, fishing the surrounding waters is very likely, but I believe that would represent a very small percentage of the total.

[Targan]

If the T2K population of Manhatten Island includes dements, well we know what they are often happy enough to eat...

[Legbreaker]

In times of short supply, I think many people might resort to that (even if they never admit to it later).

[kalos72]

Long Island will be a major part of the collective AFTER the players secure and organize Manhattan. Three of the 5 players grew up there so they want to "rule" Manhattan as it were.

I completely see the suggestions as possible, if not must have, scenarios. Mushrooms, fish farms, pigeon pens, rabbits, rat hunting perhaps farming, are all great ways to supplement food production.

Parks and every flat piece of land will be turned and cultivated of course. But without massive demolition the most free land we could come up with is bout 3000-4000 acres. And by our research the most we might get from that land, considering current conditions, is maybe 4 people fed for every acre we devote to food production. But you might want some of it for raising livestock or fuel production too...

Thats gonna leave alot of mouths to feed, and considering the availability of fishing vessels in the surrounding area, fishing seems the logical choice. The original rules give us something like 80kgs per person per day in open water, taking some things for granted for gameplay. But others have noted that if possible, some of the larger fishing vessels could feed much much more then that.

Does anyone have any numbers or resources they know of to project some actual numbers

I have never been one for "just believe me" gaming, it has to make sense and have a base in at least a lil reality.

Thanks for all the great ideas, keep em coming.

[jester]

Roof tops and gardens can represent a new form of "fields." Especialy in garden pots and tables laid out like a greenhouse.

And also think of vertical gardening. Things like vine plants that grow either up or town the side of a building from one balcony. Which could have a new group of people or kids whose purpose is to scale up say a net that the plants grow on as they scale the side of the buildings harvesting and tending the vines. And also, toss in folks using the windowwashers cart to tend and harvest as well.


These could then become castles in the sky. Where a modern fuedal lord would have several buildings, perhaps having a skywalk or even a zipline with either cablecars or just a zipline allowing his workers and his soldiers to move from building to building protecting their buildings and more importantly their crops.

And then, adding some fantasy to it, they could also have a team of members with paragliders or rectangular parachutes to land and raid their rivals, or even an ultralights or two for scouting, or, a hangglider or two again used to swoop down and attack their enemies as well as scouting.

Also, maybe falconry by the lord and his senior vassals attacking the children of their enemies as they tend the gardens, or the poor wretches who scramble in the ruble to eack out a living for nothing more than sport. Or to damage the enemys pigeon flock. Or even a modern form of cockfighting, except in this case, the birds would fight one another midflight.


And another option is along the rivers and harbor, raisng muscles is very easy! All you need is to place strings in the water and before long they will attatch themselves and grow. I can see pens along the water where these could be grown and jeaously guarded as well. With the harvest smoked or dried.

I can see several scenarios here, the muscle harvesters or waterfront people fighting with the people who farm the few ground based lands, and the people of the skyscrappers thinking they are the higher of people fighting them all, and then we have the poor who sift through the ruble in several groups and then the tunnel dwellers. Toss in those who actively fish who have a relation with the waterfront folk and you have ALOT of groups to battle over scarce resources.

[Legbreaker]

The problem I see with large fishing boats is that of fuel. Where are they going to get it, how much will they have to pay for it, and so on.
The larger boats can potentially catch tonnes of fish in a short period of time, but with food in such a short supply in the city already, little will be available to brew alcohol.

Perhaps it takes several months to brew enough for a two day voyage, maybe they have to be based many miles away and travel, or maybe raiding for fuel is an option (both on land at at sea).

Smaller wind powered boats are likely to be common, however I'm thinking there's likely to be a skill shortage for sailing them and they're not exactly all weather vessels. A decent storm is going to keep them in port and out of production for days.

Fishing in the immediate area is likely to be poor with centries of city development polluting the waterways and overfishing depleting prewar stocks. Three years after the nukes, the chemical pollutants are probably still there with the added radioactive pollution not helping the situation.

Fish stocks may have increased due to less intensive fishing, but you'd have to be hungry to risk chemical and radiation poisioning (but them these people are effectively living next to a couple of nuke craters...)

In my mind, cities are not the place to be post nuke. Fine for a visit and quick scavenge, but you wouldn't want to live there.

[Targan]

And another option is along the rivers and harbor, raisng muscles is very easy! All you need is to place strings in the water and before long they will attatch themselves and grow.

Mussels and other shellfish can be dangerous to eat if they are grown in areas with pollution such as heavy metals or radioactive fallout.

[jester]

Leg Breaker and Targan;

We must weigh the whole living in a nuked city in a post nuke work and eating muscles that are filter feeders that have been exposed to contaminants. Sorry guys, but I am laughing right now and its not just the bourbon. Kinda like when I was in and the hippie health freaks were protesting Marlboro from giving us free smokes. Yeah smokes can kill you but being in a combat zone where lead is slung your way is alot more unhealthy. Which would you rather go out by

And another thing to consider, what is the live of a muscle Most of the ones who would have had a signifigant exposure to the massive polutants and toxins durring the war and immeidatly after would have died at the end of their life cycle falling to the bottom of the river/bay. A newly farmed crop would be less dangerous and you would only have to worry about recent contaminants. Since its best to do it in a bay with tidal activity or river alot of the polutants would have moved on. Not all but most. And the risk would be no more than breathing the air or going outside in the region a few months or years after a strike.

As for a lack of sailing ability.

There are ALOT of weekend sailors who are pretty good. And a good number of sailboats in the 30+ foot class in the area. <Hell they have ALOT for sale on EBAY most of the time, much cheaper than here in Cali> Those would be the ones I would bet would have the lucratrive trade of going fishing I would say 1000 to 1200 25 foot or better who could make it a decent distance to fishing areas. And of course carry enough netting and have enough cargo capacity for a worthwhile catch.


There is something else to consider, in many areas regular fish still have contaminants of mercury and DDT and other pesticides in their systems, it is usualy the predatory fish though. I know in my area they have warning that localy caught fish a person should not eat more than two meals of fish a month if the fish are from local waters. So, how long are people to wait And if they are starving and there is little other option Really what does it matter

[Targan]

I see where you are coming from Jest but shellfish can continue to live and grow while containing toxins which at the same levels would kill a mammal. If heavily contaminated shellfish were a major part of your diet you would have major health problems within a few years, maybe even months. And they would be really nasty, non-reversible health problems too - kidney and liver damage, cancers, stuff like that.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Sorry guys, but I am laughing right now and its not just the bourbon.

Aren't time zone differences great! You're drinking Bourbon and I've just had breakfast with my daughter! Makes you realise that we really are a global community on here!