Greece v. Turkey

[Raellus]

I know that some fans have a problem with Greece & Italy turning their coats from NATO to the Warsaw Pact during the Twilight War (at least, as it's described in the v1 timeline; I don't know about how it's addressed in v2.2 and, frankly, I don't care). I used to take issue with this as well, but in the last few years, my thoughts on the matter have changed quite a bit. This article gives some historical context regarding very recent tensions between the two nominal NATO allies.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36088/face-off-in-the-aegean-how-greek-and-turkish-air-forces-stack-up

I wonder if/how v4 is going to handle Greece & Turkey and their respective alliances (NATO and/or the WTO).

Has Greece and/or Turkey ever factored into your T2k campaigns If so, how were they handled

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[Ewan]

Also Turkish involvement in Libya might lead to even more French support for Greece.

https://www.ft.com/content/3b85dd0e-1f2e-40b0-b44b-947b7f75a03e

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I wonder if/how v4 is going to handle Greece & Turkey and their respective alliances (NATO and/or the WTO).
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Given that the kickstarter page infers that only Poland and Sweden are covered in any depth, I would hazard a guess that Greece & Turket are given cursory treatment only.
However, with the announcement of the Homeland Hack stretch goal, I would hazard a guess that aside from Poland and Sweden, the entire world only gets cursory treatment.

[Raellus]

More or Less than Cursory

Given that the kickstarter page infers that only Poland and Sweden are covered in any depth, I would hazard a guess that Greece & Turket are given cursory treatment only.
However, with the announcement of the Homeland Hack stretch goal, I would hazard a guess that aside from Poland and Sweden, the entire world only gets cursory treatment.

Ha ha. Yes, Greece & Turkey really only got cursory treatment in v1- AFAIK, just a few mentions in the history of the Twilight War and a vehicle or two in the NATO Vehicle Guide. I don't really expect more from v4, but I'm wondering if the new version will have NATO stick together, or introduce some internecine conflict (like the original did).

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[StainlessSteelCynic]

For those who pledged to the kickstarter, they will get access to the alpha release of the rules sometime in the near future.
While the intent is for some play testing and feedback so that they can tweak the system before printing of physical copies begins, perhaps there will be some background information included and hopefully that will answer a few questions such as this one

[Olefin]

Actually Greece got almost totally ignored in V1 except for the short description of events in Med Cruise - they werent even included in the NATO vehicle sourcebook even though they were a NATO country - and frankly the defection of Italy is the one I really couldnt figure out - especially the thrust into Austria and southern Germany. All they did in the end was get themselves nuked by the US and Great Britain. Just staying out of it like Spain and Portugal did would have been much more realistic

[Olefin]

For those who pledged to the kickstarter, they will get access to the alpha release of the rules sometime in the near future.
While the intent is for some play testing and feedback so that they can tweak the system before printing of physical copies begins, perhaps there will be some background information included and hopefully that will answer a few questions such as this one

There should be a lot of things answered - including the situation in the US which from what I have read is to put it simply not believable - and doesnt take into consideration what the country actual was back in the 90s - keep in mind for instance that CA was still a state in the 90s that had Republican governors and Senators - a situation that is impossible today - so you have to be able to really know history to make the world situation realistic - that was a big part of the research I had to do for Kenya and East Africa and it paid off with comments from those who were actually in that area during the timeline period

[Raellus]

Update

Tension on the water as well as in the air.

https://warisboring.com/turkeys-navy-put-on-alert-in-response-to-greek-provocations/

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[Legbreaker]

Tension on the water as well as in the air.

https://warisboring.com/turkeys-navy...-provocations/-

"Greek" provocations...
Right....
Is that the same sort of "Greek" actions as the Turkish platoon which encamped themselves on the Greek side of the border just because the river marking it had moved
Seems that barely a day goes past that Turkey isn't sabre rattling lately.

[Olefin]

Not often you see a discussion here that has someone in the regular media discussing it as well - thought I would link to it if anyone wants to read it

https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2020/09/10/greekturkish-rivalry-again-near-the-boiling-point-n2575877

Not pushing any particular political point or view - just adding to the discussion

[ChalkLine]

I think it's far more likely Turkey sat out the NATO-Warsaw Pact conflict because they had a lot of local fighting to do in their own region, just look who they have on their non-Warsaw Pact borders and who their regional allies are and were.

Turkey's involvement in Cold War NATO was always extremely transactional and by the mid 1980s they were focusing on things away from the northern borders. I don't know if you guys know any Greeks or Turks, there's a big diaspora for both here, but the hatred they have for each other I've only seen equaled by the India-Pakistan thing. I mean, the Serb-Croat loathing doesn't get like this and that's jaw dropping.

Come the Twilight War you could expect those two to be like the problem the Nazis had with the Romanians and the Hungarians, they had to place German or Italian troops between them or they'd start killing each other in preference to fighting the Soviets. I'd say it'd take about twenty minutes into the war before the whole shitshow blew up again and they were clawing at each other.

[Olefin]

Greece withdrawing from NATO never made any sense to me in the context of either version of the game. Getting pissed off and going after Turkey ok - that I can see - the Turks started it after all. But basically signing the country's death warrant by going after the US Navy - that was dumb. Especially considering how exposed they were to attacks from Israel or the NATO nukes that were based in Turkey.

Having Turkey and Greece have their own little private war (especially after the Soviets nuked the hell out of Turkey and evened the odds) is a lot more logical

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I suppose the designers were trying to fill in all the gaps, that is to say, they needed to have the entire world devastated so that national governments were no longer the power they used to be (if they even still exist after the war) and so they tried all sorts of things to reduce each nation to a post-apoc level.

Not trying to make excuses or defend their decisions, I agree that the treatment of some Mediterranean nations should have been better.
Like others here I find it hard to figure out why Italy would attack it's allies and go hell for leather into Austria and why the Greeks thought they stood a snowball's chance in hell of taking on the USN in the Med. It doesn't make any sense that I can figure out.

[Legbreaker]

I suggest that Greece attacking the NATO convoy was more symbolic than anything, an effort to show the world they were SERIOUS about their declaration. It's quite likely they were expecting their prior allies to back down and try something else rather than risk casualties in a conflict they didn't really have a lot of skin in.
It was a gamble which if successful would have paid huge dividends. Unfortunately the result was somewhat different to the expectations/hopes.

[Raellus]

Mini Arms Race

Greece is going on a bit of a defense spending spree. I reckon Turkey will respond in kind.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36397/greece-is-buying-french-rafale-fighters-in-light-of-tensions-with-turkey

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