Ammo reloading

[kalos72]

Is it me or are there no rules for reloading anything above small arms

What bout ac/mortar/arty rounds

Suggestions

[jester]

Some things like mortar rounds can not be reloaded, as the entire round is consumed much like that of a rocket launcher.

As for auto cannon rounds some are electronicaly fired which would pose a problem in the T2K world.

Large caliber gun round, much like the mortar the round or projectile is loaded then a bag of powder or charge and the entire thing is consumed.

As for large caliber gun fixed shells like tank rounds, such rounds are more complex, especialy the projectile. Where the round is made up of several internal components, these I can see being made, at least simplier rounds such as standard HE or HEAT rounds and probably some form of beehive or flachette round which would be like a giant buckshot round, these I can see being more common as reloads since the threat from armor is dwindling as more are lost on the battlefield and the threat of personel is the last main threat, of course tank crews would hoarde their last few anti tank rounds just in case and only use them grudgingly.

[kalos72]

Isnt most of the AC stuff just a really large bullet Leaving a "case" behind just like a normal small arms round Simple HE rounds should be able to reloaded I would think.

Mortars - could you just make a new case for it

Losing rockets and missiles is gonna suck but I dont see those becoming made again for awhile.

I am sure the more complicated rounds cant be reproduced but the simple HE stuff should be...

And how do you figure mechanics for them

[jester]

Isnt most of the AC stuff just a really large bullet Leaving a "case" behind just like a normal small arms round Simple HE rounds should be able to reloaded I would think.

Mortars - could you just make a new case for it

Losing rockets and missiles is gonna suck but I dont see those becoming made again for awhile.

I am sure the more complicated rounds cant be reproduced but the simple HE stuff should be...

And how do you figure mechanics for them

AC:

Not really, alot of the cases are steel or aluminuim which are made for a 1 shot life, stress they undergo would make them hazardous to reuse,=. <A rupted case on a large gun like that in the breach could be very very bad> And even with brass cases they would have to be resized, a die the size of the case would be needed to send the shell through and reformed, and those are not all that common outside the factory.

Mortars: pretty simple round, a cast metal casing filled with explosive and a impact fuse is simple enpough. The downside. If you have a misfire with a hot tube, life could suck really quick. At best you would probably loose the gun. But, then you need the facility to cast and mill down the casings for the shells and a facility to make the explosive and the propellant.

Rockets: things like RPGs and even old style Bazooka rounds wouldn't be that hard to make, about on par with the mortar rounds,. Just balance of the round and again explosive and propellant are the issue. I can also see this being done with the old tyme recoiless rifles too.

Complicated rounds, yeah like the ICBM and similiar rounds with submunitions, guided stuff, wireguided missiles, antitank rounds like the Depleted Urianium rounds and proximity fuses would be a problem.

Then again if you have the facilities, material and talent you could probably ramp up production on small scale.

[kalos72]

Then lets assume during a daring raid into an old Army Ammunition Plant, I was able to the dies and some of the basic machinery to cast the larger rounds.

By using this information I think it would be a great side adventure.... http://www.jmc.army.mil/FactSheets/FactSheets.asp

Question is, would the local MILGOV/CIVGOC forces be smart enough to pull that sort of machinery out or would they just "take the ammo and run"

[Legbreaker]

Firstly, there is not such thing as a "simple" large calibre round. Even the "relatively simple" AP rounds, such as the solid slugs commonly used in WWII era tanks, require precision engineering. It's far simplier to say as a GM that these rounds cannot be reloaded (and IRL the vast majority can't anyway) and production of them is only possible in prewar facilities.

With regard to dies and production machinery, anyone with half a brain would quickly see the value of them, although if the pressure was on and time limited, they're not much good short term.

The machinery using the dies, etc are just as valuable and so I can see large scale offensives (at least large in terms of T2K forces) to capture and hold these types of facilities.

Something that should be kept in mind too is that just because a factory produces 120mm smoothbore tank rounds, it's very unlikely to be set up to produce 120mm mortar or artillery rounds, let alone rockets and missiles.

[kato13]

I am pretty optimistic on production but I don't see anything significant in the ways of heavy ordinance production for 10 years or so after the war. There are just too many required dependencies. Each of the subassemblies would need to be produced first.

On the other hand I do see refurbishing of ammunition being somewhat possible. Older ammunition my be able to be disassembled and reconstructed with the best components being put into a few rounds.

I don't know if anyone would be brave (of foolish) enough to attempt to repackage unexploded ICM or FASCAM rounds but that is probably the most complicated thing that could be produced as a majority of the parts can be salvaged.

[Targan]

We had at least two long running threads on this topic on the old boards. Anybody save those threads for our newcomers to look at

[kalos72]

Well for me its like this. I cant see the post war world not having any artillery larger then mortars.

I think that after a time, small limited production of new rounds should be possible for most anything. Even if its perhaps something more along the lines of older WW2 or WW1 style munitions.

Now for the PC's to be able to do this they would need a very stable reloading operation for the components first. And then the dies/machinery to cast the larger rounds. Those would either need to be secured and moved to a new location OR capture/holding of an ammo plant facility.

I am not sure how you would figure out the quantities of each material component for a larger shell but I think I can calculate something based on a small arms reload setup.

Lets say you can produce 200 finished 5.56 rounds per week in your current reload operation. You take the actual weight of the large round you want to reload, divide by the actual weight of the 5.56 round to get the actual equivalent time/materials to make one of those new large rounds.

EXAMPLE:

I have a reload setup running 200 5.56 finished rounds per week.
I want to make new 155mm HE rounds that weigh 50kgs each.
My 5.56 rounds weigh 0.014kg each.
50 / .014 = 3572
Meaning based on my current reload production of 200, I could make one 155m round every 17 weeks. 3572/200=17.85

This would account for the added materials as well as the longer production times for casting the round from scratch.

This would also assume you have the dies/machinery/skills to make the larger rounds in the first place.

[kota1342000]

A bit of personal experience...

I reload much of my own ammunition for my own guns, as I imagine many here on the forum do, and I have thought long and hard about the topic of reloading larger ammunition...then I witnessed some things from the Cheyenne Wells Machine Gun Shoot that I couldnt quite believe had I not saw it myself.

A small group of class 3 license owners had taken and older 90mm anti-aircraft gun and mounted it on what was obviously the carrige for the M114 155mm howitzer. In effect a 90mm anti-tank gun, and were reloading their own ammunition for it on site to shoot. The reloading press was an auto-body 12T shop press, and a brass tube had to be drilled and placed so the effect of the primer would be distributed throughout the length of the 90mm brass case (about 18in in length). The round as i remember were casted and machined 24lb solid shot, and the propellant was 7 1/2 pounds of large grain smokeless powder (I figured this out to be about 25,400 grains for my scale of reloading).

Now, being not only a reloading buff, but also an anti-tank buff having been a TOW gunner, my good time got better and better as I saw what their target was...a concrete wall made by stacking 4X4X8 concrete blocks 4 high and 3 deep.
Jester had mentioned earlier in this thread about brass casings for large caliber weapons having 1 shot life, and I had thought the exact same thing; therefore I was a tad bit on the alarmed side to see the crew seating the reloaded shells with a few taps on the rims into the breech with an 8lb sledge hammer! After that I stood back a little more and kept my fingers crossed that there wern't going to be any malfunctions, and fortunately there were none.
And soon I found myself laughing with tears running down my face as the crew of this 90mm AT gun started blowing the concrete wall all to hell. Out in Eastern Colorado with plenty of room to shoot, these 24lb shot were blasting through the wall, then ricocheting almost out to the horizon, about 14 miles away. When the crew was finished it was a pretty pile of concrete gravel and chunks and dust. After the line cease fire a friend and I also hunted down one of the ricochet impacts within 500 yards of the firing position. The ground there was mashed into a lengthwise pit that looked very much like a .45acp bullet shot through ballistic gelatin.
All the way around it was an awesome day.

So that crew proved that it is possible to reload and make ammunition for larger caliber guns, though the safety factor of doing so (in my mind, not trying to disrespect the good 90mm crew) might be questionable, or unknown risk.
General Pain has a set of small industry shop progression, including building a reloading shop up to an munitions factory, and also has a list of what shops need to be built to progress to the next group of shops. Personally, I think I got a picture of what part of the munitions factory would involve that day in Cheyenne Wells.

[headquarters]

very interesting 90mm facts

I know that the 105 mm tank gun shell casings in our battalion were collected and shipped to the factory again .Maybe for melting down ,but I would imagine that a check up like a visual inspection and or x ray could determine if the shell could be re used .

As you say -the "powder mill " that is the first step on the munitions ladder in Gen Pains (and my )N work is a 1750 ish set up -the first shop that can make modern large caliber rounds sort of a early industrial revolution shop combined with those guys with their 90mm reloading operation .(awesome).

I think some kind of production facility could be made -look to the tribal areas of Afghanistan and what they make there.And their tools and raw materials are primitive in comparrison .

Making a heat charge instead of a hesh or he charge isnt really that more complicated -but I think that having a production plant in it self is .

You need :
raw materials
know how/ experts
machinery and parts

someone to feed ,look after and guard the factory etc etc .

Still -I think it could be done by improvisation -at least machining and manufacturing the simpler types of ammo .But say that the the machines to improvise and do it were there ,but that only one or two guys were proficient, there is your bottleneck .Also raw materials dry up ,machines get broken.

I would give it poorer stats though ,and increase risk of dangerous malfunction/misfires ,wear to the gun etc .

I wouldnt say that 4000 x 5.56 is 1 x 120 mm at round .The machinery is just two different ballparks. For the record I recon I could do 200 5.56 with a 2 stage press in one day if I had the time or the inlination.

[kalos72]

Overall, I agree with you HQ, it should be possible given certain assumptions.

The reason I used the 5.56 example was to give a base that can be duplicated from the current rule set. I didn't want to completely improvise the numbers and tried to think of a some what logical way to make the math work.

But also, dont forget those production numbers do include making your own gunpowder, your own primers and bullets. Not simply the process of pumping out a finished round.

Two side questions I have here though:
1) Do the cases have to be brass Wouldnt steel cases be more durable
2) Same question with the bullet, why not steel

Reason I ask is I see lead being alot harder to find then steel in a urban environment. There can only be so many batteries or old fashioned lead pipes around. And with most of the states lead mines being in the middle of the country, getting them to NYC would be more then a challenge.

[kato13]

And with most of the states lead mines being in the middle of the country, getting them to NYC would be more then a challenge.

This document

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/mapdata/documnt1.pdf

says there are a couple of lead mines in St. Lawrence county New York. In case that is useful to you.

[Rupert Willies]

Brass vs Steel:
There have been numerous tests done comparing the lifespan of steel casings vs brass casings for handguns/rifles, and most conclude that brass is much more durable, because it can better stand the crimping and resizing. Steel is more brittle. If you are careful, you can get brass casings taking as much as 100 reloads (don't count on it though). Plus steel usually shoots dirtier = more residue in the gun itself = more wear on the gun. Steel is cheaper.
In T2k I guess steel would dominate, because of cost.

Overall, I agree with you HQ, it should be possible given certain assumptions.

The reason I used the 5.56 example was to give a base that can be duplicated from the current rule set. I didn't want to completely improvise the numbers and tried to think of a some what logical way to make the math work.

But also, dont forget those production numbers do include making your own gunpowder, your own primers and bullets. Not simply the process of pumping out a finished round.

Two side questions I have here though:
1) Do the cases have to be brass Wouldnt steel cases be more durable
2) Same question with the bullet, why not steel

Reason I ask is I see lead being alot harder to find then steel in a urban environment. There can only be so many batteries or old fashioned lead pipes around. And with most of the states lead mines being in the middle of the country, getting them to NYC would be more then a challenge.

[kato13]

Don't the Russians primarily use steel casings. I seem to remember the unlikelihood of being able to reload Russian ammunition being discussed a while back.