Getting a Farm Going

[Legbreaker]

You are misperceiving LINEAR DISTANCE with SQUARE AREA.

No, I'm not actually.
Yes it might be possible to see that far, but that assumes relatively flat and open terrain. I grew up on 200 acres - a fairly small block really, but there was no way you could see from one end to the other because of the ridgelines, forested areas, etc. It was often impossible to even hear gunfire from some points.
Additionally, the idea is to meet any threats well away from your boundaries if at all possible. You'd want to extend your patrols several miles in all directions.
If you're dealing with bandits within your boundary, you've got major problems.

Now, if your land is on nice flat ground with clear sight lines for miles, then a simple watchtower might well suffice. Problem with that is sight lines are two directional.

In the initial stages while the characters are learning the how of farming, as I mentioned earlier, it's far better they focus on small area subsistence farming with an emphasis on concealment and protection. As their skills and resources improve (scavenged machinery, seed stock, additional personnel, etc) they can expand their cultivated area, always however with security as a background thought - even several years post nuke there's still a lot of starving people willing and able to do nasty things to get a meal.

[Vespers War]

Somewhat tangential, but page 273 is almost certainly excessive for animal food consumption. It calls for 15 kg of grain for a horse or 10 kg for a mule plus 8 hours of grazing.

For comparison, here's what the British Army provided animals "in camp" (i.e. at the front lines) during World War I. When "in stables" the diet was reduced by 2 pounds of grain per day (oats for the horses and maize for the mules). Chaff was a 50/50 mix of hay and straw.

Heavy Draft Horse: 13 pounds oats, 4 pounds maize, 16 pounds chaff
Officer's Horse or Riding Horse taller than 15.1 1/2 hands: 12 pounds oats, 10 pounds chaff
Pack Horse or Riding Horse shorter than 15.1 1/2 hands: 11 pounds oats, 10 pounds chaff
Light Draft Horse: 9 pounds oats, 4 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff
Heavy Draft Mule: 14 pounds maize, 16 pounds chaff
Light Draft Mule: 12 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff
Pack Mule: 7 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff

The amount of grain required on page 273 is equal to the total amount of feed for a Heavy Draft Horse or Light Draft Mule. A relatively simple suggested house rule is to require either the amount of grain listed with no grazing or half the amount listed with 8 hours of grazing.

[Legbreaker]

I think you can reconcile the game amounts with reality by assuming the post nuke "grain" isn't as high a quality was pre nuke. Contains a lot more chaff than actual grain, the crops themselves are effected by radiation, limited rainfall and sunshine, etc.
Yes, it's a bit of a generalised handwaving, but...

[Enfield]

No, I'm not actually.
Yes it might be possible to see that far, but that assumes relatively flat and open terrain. I grew up on 200 acres - a fairly small block really, but there was no way you could see from one end to the other because of the ridgelines, forested areas, etc. It was often impossible to even hear gunfire from some points.
Additionally, the idea is to meet any threats well away from your boundaries if at all possible. You'd want to extend your patrols several miles in all directions.
If you're dealing with bandits within your boundary, you've got major problems.

Now, if your land is on nice flat ground with clear sight lines for miles, then a simple watchtower might well suffice. Problem with that is sight lines are two directional.

In the initial stages while the characters are learning the how of farming, as I mentioned earlier, it's far better they focus on small area subsistence farming with an emphasis on concealment and protection. As their skills and resources improve (scavenged machinery, seed stock, additional personnel, etc) they can expand their cultivated area, always however with security as a background thought - even several years post nuke there's still a lot of starving people willing and able to do nasty things to get a meal.

One of the issues with the location is that it is lying in the vicinity of two roads. One is a two lane nearby, one is a major highway 4 km away. While the area is insular and communities are small and isolated due to the devastation, even if marauders, hungry refugees and others might just be passing through, the farming could be a tempting target for marauders, scavengers and refugees.

[Enfield]

Somewhat tangential, but page 273 is almost certainly excessive for animal food consumption. It calls for 15 kg of grain for a horse or 10 kg for a mule plus 8 hours of grazing.

For comparison, here's what the British Army provided animals "in camp" (i.e. at the front lines) during World War I. When "in stables" the diet was reduced by 2 pounds of grain per day (oats for the horses and maize for the mules). Chaff was a 50/50 mix of hay and straw.

Heavy Draft Horse: 13 pounds oats, 4 pounds maize, 16 pounds chaff
Officer's Horse or Riding Horse taller than 15.1 1/2 hands: 12 pounds oats, 10 pounds chaff
Pack Horse or Riding Horse shorter than 15.1 1/2 hands: 11 pounds oats, 10 pounds chaff
Light Draft Horse: 9 pounds oats, 4 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff
Heavy Draft Mule: 14 pounds maize, 16 pounds chaff
Light Draft Mule: 12 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff
Pack Mule: 7 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff

The amount of grain required on page 273 is equal to the total amount of feed for a Heavy Draft Horse or Light Draft Mule. A relatively simple suggested house rule is to require either the amount of grain listed with no grazing or half the amount listed with 8 hours of grazing.

That's great. It adds up with an older book I read that was published in the 1930s called Animal Management.

The party had found a stray horse, clearly domesticated but on its own and seeking company/help. They had no idea what to do with it and I didn't tell them, so they ended up leaving it on its own and it got killed by predators. Hopefully they learned their lesson.

[pmulcahy11b]

You know, IRL I know nothing about farming or taking care of animals other than dogs or cats. I'd need scads of teachers in T2K to become useful on a farm.

Of course, once my meds ran out, I be in a continual severe psychosis, and probably of no use to anyone, including myself. Probably spend a lot of time breaking into pharmacies looking for Invega, Ativan, and Modafinel.

Sorry to threadjack, but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world Would they even

[Enfield]

You know, IRL I know nothing about farming or taking care of animals other than dogs or cats. I'd need scads of teachers in T2K to become useful on a farm.

Of course, once my meds ran out, I be in a continual severe psychosis, and probably of no use to anyone, including myself. Probably spend a lot of time breaking into pharmacies looking for Invega, Ativan, and Modafinel.

Sorry to threadjack, but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world Would they even

Most of those who need regular access to pharmacies and other infrastructure supported medical support facilities would either be in really rough shape or dead.

Even in modern industrial nations like Kenya or Zambia, or in some of the former Soviet republics, they lack the ability to accomodate mental illness or some disabilities like visual impairment. People underestimate how much medical advances and prosperity make such help available.

So how much of a stockpile would the average state in the Union have And how good would their distribution be

But that's a good point, a great adventure hook.

Let's say you have a character with a chronic illness, like Diabetes 1, or with a mental illness requiring a medical regimen. But the person is a loved one, part of the group, or even an expert in a field that has become rare where their expertise is needed. The characters, who would perhaps normally avoid cities, are forced to go to one.

I may even do that to force the group to go to the New American enclave and go to Lewiston or some such place, forced to treat and deal with them or sneak in and sneak out...

[swaghauler]

You know, IRL I know nothing about farming or taking care of animals other than dogs or cats. I'd need scads of teachers in T2K to become useful on a farm.

Of course, once my meds ran out, I be in a continual severe psychosis, and probably of no use to anyone, including myself. Probably spend a lot of time breaking into pharmacies looking for Invega, Ativan, and Modafinel.

Sorry to threadjack, but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world Would they even

One area where I'm STILL kind of working on for the SCAVENGING RULES IS the creation of meds and chemicals. We have people with Chemistry and Biology skills in the game and chemicals can be acquired or even created, so why can't people with prior careers as Chemists, Doctors, and RNs MAKE medicine We humans have been doing that since the Dark Ages.

There IS a Pharmacy equivalent to the PHYSICIAN'S DESK REFERENCE for Pharmacists. It lists various drugs, their components, and potential interactions with other drugs. This would be like a "bible" for a fledgling "compounding lab." Once you know what's in a given drug, you should be able to either approximate it or replicate it.

My idea for this follows the same pattern that I use for salvaging industrial machines and electronics...

1) Set a Difficulty Level starting at EASY and moving up to IMPOSSIBLE based on the complexity of the item.
2) Determine the number and type of Tools and Resources [units] needed to perform the task. For example, a new radio might require 6 small repair parts units, 3 electronics parts units, and a battery. It would also require an Electronics toolkit.
3) Determine the Skill OR Skills required to make the item in question. ie. Electronics skill for the radio above.

This is the standard procedure I use for most of my Salvage rules.

[swaghauler]

One thing I do see in this Forum that I still don't quite understand is this idea that you HAVE to find a thing in order to have it because NOTHING is being made now. Maybe it's because I grew up on a farm. If we needed something and didn't have it, we just either fabricated it or "repurposed" something else to meet our needs. In my mind, I can see all kinds of people in Twilight2000 doing just that.

Need a certain type of tool Modify another tool or just make what you need using welders and a grinder.

Need a hand lifting something enlist a horse or cow to give you what you need, or at the very least, rig a block and tackle.

Need to make a certain chemical Just get yourself a college chemistry book with the formula in it and try NOT to burn your eyebrows off (and yes, I'm guilty... and no I'm not going to talk about it).

This is what I'd do in the real world and this is what I encourage my PC to do in my games.

[Legbreaker]

...but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world Would they even

That's actually a damn fine question and one that came up recently in Lurken's Discord game. An NPC was determined to have a brain injury resulting in a loss of Intelligence (down to 1).
Through long term use of appropriate skills (a mix of Medicine: Diagnosis, Interrogation and Persuasion for the most part), and possibly medication (Chemistry with a touch of Biology) a few points might, in time be regained.
Of course while in the middle of Poland in 2000 that's rather unlikely to happen, but who knows

For others with less "recoverable" illnesses once the medication runs out with little chance to acquire more, it might be more humane to give them a final rest with a lead pill. Not a nice thing to have to contemplate, but when you've exhausted all other options....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

One thing I do see in this Forum that I still don't quite understand is this idea that you HAVE to find a thing in order to have it because NOTHING is being made now. Maybe it's because I grew up on a farm. If we needed something and didn't have it, we just either fabricated it or "repurposed" something else to meet our needs. In my mind, I can see all kinds of people in Twilight2000 doing just that.

Need a certain type of tool Modify another tool or just make what you need using welders and a grinder.

Need a hand lifting something enlist a horse or cow to give you what you need, or at the very least, rig a block and tackle.

Need to make a certain chemical Just get yourself a college chemistry book with the formula in it and try NOT to burn your eyebrows off (and yes, I'm guilty... and no I'm not going to talk about it).

This is what I'd do in the real world and this is what I encourage my PC to do in my games.

Hey wasn't that the kind of information you would find in the Farmer's Almanac and books like that

[Tegyrius]

Sorry to threadjack, but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world Would they even

The same question applies to a host of other medical issues that require pharmaceutical maintenance or other regular care. Enfield mentioned diabetes, which is the classic example from Lucifer's Hammer. Among other factors, I would expect the HIV/AIDS epidemic to be a source of paranoia, discrimination, and other social complications atop its medical implications.

For that matter, anyone dependent on electrically-powered medical equipment probably died shortly after the first wave of nuclear strikes. Anyone know the effects of EMP on pacemakers

Back to the thread topic, these issues present an interesting complication for any group attempting to align itself with the Cascadians. The Cascadians are working toward the survival of civilization, not necessarily that of any given individual. It's up to each referee to determine how far they take it in their campaign, but I'll point to one of the Cascadian movement's principles:

Societal triage. Current and imminent resource shortages mean the Cascadians and the other American successor governments can't save everyone, so they shouldn't waste their limited resources trying to do that. There's a limited amount of room in the Cascadian lifeboat. Those who won't align with the movement's tenets and the needs of the day will be encouraged to go elsewhere if necessary, at gunpoint. This doesn't mean people who can't work are exiled, though, so long as they can contribute something (or they've earned charity through service to the movement). A mind is just as valuable as a pair of hands. Whether this should extend to some measure of eugenics in a post-nuclear gene pool is a hotly-debated point in Cascadian communities.

- C.

[CDAT]

The same question applies to a host of other medical issues that require pharmaceutical maintenance or other regular care. Enfield mentioned diabetes, which is the classic example from Lucifer's Hammer. Among other factors, I would expect the HIV/AIDS epidemic to be a source of paranoia, discrimination, and other social complications atop its medical implications.

For that matter, anyone dependent on electrically-powered medical equipment probably died shortly after the first wave of nuclear strikes. Anyone know the effects of EMP on pacemakers

...

- C.

A book that this issue was a central part of is "one second after" by William R. Forstchen. Main characters daughter is a diabetic, and town doctor talked a bit about some of the antipsychotic medications, or the withdraws from them.

[Enfield]

The same question applies to a host of other medical issues that require pharmaceutical maintenance or other regular care. Enfield mentioned diabetes, which is the classic example from Lucifer's Hammer. Among other factors, I would expect the HIV/AIDS epidemic to be a source of paranoia, discrimination, and other social complications atop its medical implications.

For that matter, anyone dependent on electrically-powered medical equipment probably died shortly after the first wave of nuclear strikes. Anyone know the effects of EMP on pacemakers

Back to the thread topic, these issues present an interesting complication for any group attempting to align itself with the Cascadians. The Cascadians are working toward the survival of civilization, not necessarily that of any given individual. It's up to each referee to determine how far they take it in their campaign, but I'll point to one of the Cascadian movement's principles:



- C.

According to a report I read, it is not automatic that a pacemaker will be destroyed by EMP. Interestingly, the human body will act as a kind of Faraday Cage and shield the device.Unless the person is pretty close to the blast radius, people with pacemakers should be fine.

[pmulcahy11b]

For others with less "recoverable" illnesses once the medication runs out with little chance to acquire more, it might be more humane to give them a final rest with a lead pill. Not a nice thing to have to contemplate, but when you've exhausted all other options....

Hay, that's me! You f**k!

That sort of makes me wonder...what if I asked Dr Pola (my doctor; he's young enough he may have RPGd at some point) what it would take to mix up a reliable batch of my medicine, or if there's an herbal substitute. Unfortunately, my next regular appointment with him is not until 7 June, and I don't want to call for a special appointment just to ask him RPG questions! He is, though, an Iraq Vet, and might have put some thought into this sort of thing, maybe for the Iraqi people who were probably short of this type of medication.