Design Discussion: Barriers to New Player Entry for T2k

[kato13]

Well, the chargen process suffers from not having as large amount of automated tool support that D&D has, but it also isn't as complicated.

I fully agree the Dndbeyond system works really well for 5e. Wish I had found it when I first DM'ed

On the other hand this is the T2k13 char gen process



I thought about building a character maker (why else build a flowchart), but at a minimum providing something like this for a map (with decisions and page numbers) is something every complicated system should do.

[3catcircus]

I fully agree the Dndbeyond system works really well for 5e. Wish I had found it when I first DM'ed

On the other hand this is the T2k13 char gen process



I thought about building a character maker (why else build a flowchart), but at a minimum providing something like this for a map (with decisions and page numbers) is something every complicated system should do.

Yep - it *looks* complicated. But the only really hard part is gearing up, which, other than the random tables, offers no advice other than "don't exceed your allotted amount of stuff."

A list of "this is all the standard issue kit a soldier in this army gets issued" would go a long way.

[Tegyrius]

Kato, when you diagram it like that, all I can say is, "it made more sense inside my head at the time."

- C.

[kato13]

Kato, when you diagram it like that, all I can say is, "it made more sense inside my head at the time."

- C.

Hey if I didn't like it would I have done this

I don't care about the number of steps but the jumping around in the book was a little confusing. I know publishing has to be flexible, but after the final print is approved something with page numbers like this could be useful. That is why I built it.

[3catcircus]

Hey if I didn't like it would I have done this

I don't care about the number of steps but the jumping around in the book was a little confusing. I know publishing has to be flexible, but after the final print is approved something with page numbers like this could be useful. That is why I built it.

I'm in the process of typing up the entire core book rules into a personal new document, but rolling in all the shooters guides, addendum, and errata. I'm moving the equipment section after the life path section, vehicles after that, then combat, then the exploration/upkeep stuff. In my mind, that's the best order of the chapters.

[Tegyrius]

Hey if I didn't like it would I have done this

I don't care about the number of steps but the jumping around in the book was a little confusing. I know publishing has to be flexible, but after the final print is approved something with page numbers like this could be useful. That is why I built it.

Either you liked it or you were so angry at it that you spent hours making a flowchart to illustrate how broken it is. I don't think you're that vindictive...

Good to see you posting again, by the way.

As far as the organization... fair criticism. More cross-references and a different overall organizational scheme would have been good. After doing all the layout for the weapon and equipment tables, though, I think Keith might have put out a hit on me if I'd asked for any more InDesign tinkering...

- C.

[3catcircus]

Either you liked it or you were so angry at it that you spent hours making a flowchart to illustrate how broken it is. I don't think you're that vindictive...

Good to see you posting again, by the way.

As far as the organization... fair criticism. More cross-references and a different overall organizational scheme would have been good. After doing all the layout for the weapon and equipment tables, though, I think Keith might have put out a hit on me if I'd asked for any more InDesign tinkering...

- C.

Would it have made more sense to split the firearms stats - with those related to procuring in the equipment section and those related to use in the combat section

[Adm.Lee]

By far, the greatest common factors driving disinterest among potential players is the game's military focus. ...

A corollary to this is that most of my gaming friendships emerged from World of Darkness fandom, and thus my gaming circle is more diverse than the audience here. Several female gamers, gamers of color, and LGBTQ+ gamers have opined that T2k is not interesting because the setting lacks a place for PCs whose identities and experiences mirror their own (recall that during the era in which T2k takes place, LGBTQ+ folk were barred from U.S. military service).


I'm curious as to what barriers other referees have encountered when attempting to recruit new groups. I'm also interested in poking at what tools can be created - whether official 4e products, changes intrinsic to a hypothetical 5e, or fan creations for previous editions - to help overcome these barriers and bring more players to the game.

- C.

Second question first: in my few groups since 1990, I do not recall female gamers having trouble getting into the setting or game. I've been a pretty lax GM about "women can't do combat", and I think most of their characters were from countries that were less rigid about women in combat arms in the 90s. LGBTQ issues haven't come up at all, since I don't think sex & romance haven't been issues in those groups, either.

The military theme has probably been stronger. 1) I have a reputation in my RPG groups as a wargamer, so there may well be a fear of "not doing it right", that I'd wipe the floor with their group with my superior tactics 2) Very few of my friends really care about war and military things to begin with, so a game in a military setting has no pull.

Regarding rank: That may be a thing, but I've gotten some discussion about that whenever a pirate-themed D&D game came up, or a Traveller or Star Trek game. In my groups, the understanding has arisen that the captain of a ship (by extension, an officer in T2k) really shouldn't boss around other PCs, or there could be an NPC captain, open to suggestions.

My most recent experience with T2k has been at the annual Origins convention, and my groups have been about 75% guys who played T2k back in the day, 15% spouses or kids of same, and 10% people who'd only heard of the game, no military experience. I'm happy to say that I've gotten repeat business from the last group, they seemed to enjoy the tactical play of the game. That said, those have been one-off events, mostly on planning and shooting, very little of the logistics of survival.

[Raellus]

What's Twilight 2000

Perhaps the biggest barrier to new player entry for T2k is simply not knowing about T2k. Consider the age of the game. T2k v1 was released in 1984 or thereabouts. v2.2 in 1993. IIRC, the last new printed material for v2.2 was released in '95 or '96. So, Twilight 2000 was essentially a dead game for about 15 years or so, until T2013 came out in 2009. That version had a tragically short run (I don't know this, but my impression is that the printing was relatively small as well), so its impact was pretty minimal. After that, T2k was essentially a dead game again, for another decade or so. This all means that potential players born after the end of the Cold War would have no reason to even know that T2k existed unless they were into Cold War military history and happened upon some obscure internet forum dedicated to an essentially dead game (i.e. T2k).

That's why the release of v4- regardless of how O.G. fans feel about it- is an important event. It might draw folks who've never heard of T2k into the fold.

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