Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Eukie]

Hello!

Im working on my own 1989 Cold War Gone Hot scenario, and to mirror some Soviet army lists with T-10Ms and IS-3Ms, Im looking for fun, weird, old stuff to pull out of storage for the other nations, including the US. This forum and this thread specifically has been very useful, mentioning for example some 50 M60A2 Starships on POMCUS circa 1990. However, Im wondering whether anyone knows how long the M103 Heavy Tanks stick around According to Ospreys M103 Heavy Tank 1950-1974 they were placed in storage at Yermo Annex, Barstow California, and Albany, Georgia, but Ive found absolutely nothing on how many or how long they were in storage and whether they could plausibly be reactivated as War Materiel Reserve for WWIII in Europe. Does anyone have more information

Thank you for your time.

[Raellus]

Welcome, Eukie!

I can't find any mention of the existing M103 Heavy Tanks past retirement in 1972. Apparently, 10 reside in museums here and there, but that's it.

Interestingly, the M103 never received an official nickname like other American MBTs, nor did they ever set tread outside of the USA.

Given the 1989 date of your Cold-War-gone-hot scenario, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the the bulk of the M103 were still in storage in some USMC depot when WW3 started.

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[Eukie]

Welcome, Eukie!
Given the 1989 date of your Cold-War-gone-hot scenario, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the the bulk of the M103 were still in storage in some USMC depot when WW3 started.

Thanks! I was so very excited when I realised the US still had the 120 mm shells on book by 1993-1994-ish. Now to find a unit to stick them with...

In return, I offer the observation that while the M247 Sgt. York never entered official, army service, they built like 50 of them and they entered navy service as radar tracking systems (and air-to-ground targets) and many were stationed in Dixie Valley, Nevada. Several of them actually remain there to this day, since it hasn't been economical to retrieve them. The US Army still had the ammo on book circa 1993-1994, so in a Cold War Gone Hot scenario starting in 1997 (which I understand is what 1st edition Twilight: 2000 has), it's entirely possible the Sgt. York could be pressed into service.

It wasn't flawless, but by the time it was cancelled it was functional and while it couldn't keep up with Abrams and Bradley, any scenario that has the US deploy a lot of M60s and NatGuard M48s into combat could potentially have the Sgt. York make a glorious return. I like to imagine there's a Marine brigade/division that gets a Sgt. York battery operated by the Navy somewhere in WWIII.

The major problems it's going to have is a lack of spare parts, since it never entered widespread service, and the never-fixed problem of its hydraulics failing. A very annoying problem that speaks to the immaturity of the system when it was cancelled, but it'd hardly be the worst system that has entered service in the desperation of wartime.

[Adm.Lee]

Welcome, Eukie!

I can't find any mention of the existing M103 Heavy Tanks past retirement in 1972. Apparently, 10 reside in museums here and there, but that's it.

Interestingly, the M103 never received an official nickname like other American MBTs, nor did they ever set tread outside of the USA.

Given the 1989 date of your Cold-War-gone-hot scenario, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the the bulk of the M103 were still in storage in some USMC depot when WW3 started.

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I've seen at least 2 M103s parked at VFW halls around Ohio before 1990. I remember having to look them up in a book, as they didn't look like exactly like M48/M60s.

[Homer]

The Patton Museum at Fort Knox had an extensive collection of AFVs, including foreign made examples either captured or purchased for testing. Some were better runners than others. They kept the overflow in motor pool lots and some sheds off of main range road and some equipment in the LST building.

Not sure what the full collection was, but there were runners of the chieftain, s-tank, leo I, bmp-1, t-55, t-34/85, m60a2, and mtlb among others. There was an m103 (plus one in Radcliff on static display), centurion, AMX-10, PT-76, centauro, and a number of one off test articles as well. The museum had various tigers, panthers, ha-go, chi-ha, and a T-72 Assad Babil. Some could crank and move onto the outdoor pads for PMCS. The only ones I'm pretty sure didn't run were the cut away Tiger and the crushed ha-go. To throw something fun at the players they had a Mk IV.

Could be a way to introduce a unique vehicle into play. I believe that the gs maintenance unit for the armor school produced unavailable parts from stock.

[Vespers War]

The March-April 1981 issue of the Field Artillery Journal mentions in passing that turretless M103s were used as mobile targets in the HELBAT (Human Engineering Laboratory Battalion Artillery Test) tests of laser designators. No live ammo was used in those tests, so the hulls would have survived, and it shows at least some were in running condition in the late 70s or extremely early 80s. I haven't found any later references to the M103 other than museum pieces.

[Homer]

I think most M103s, other than what was in a museum, ended their lives as range targets. There were some at Peason Ridge and on the Mk 19 range at fort polk serving as artillery or hard targets in the 1990s.

[Raellus]

Kommuna

Does it count if the equipment was never mothballed Until I read the second article linked below, I was unaware that the Russians are currently using a submarine rescue ship that entered service in 1915! That's not a typo.

It was named the Volkhov before the Russian Revolution.

https://www.twz.com/russias-110-year-old-salvage-ship-deploying-to-moskva-wreck-report

It seems that reports of the Kommuna's demise were greatly exaggerated.

https://www.twz.com/news-features/russias-historic-submarine-rescue-ship-looks-undamaged-after-claimed-strike

It looks like the Kommuna could make a pretty cool floating pirate base in T2k.

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[Vespers War]

I'd first heard about the ship when she was involved in salvaging Moskva after that ship's involuntary conversion to reef. Kommuna originally served as both a submarine rescue ship (attempting to raise sunken submarines before the crew perished) and as a tender, carrying 10 torpedoes, 50 tons of fuel, and 60 submariners for resupply of submarines at sea. Once submarines became too large for her to lift, she was reclassified as a salvage ship.

It was mothballed in the past and may not have been available for a Twilight scenario. In 1984 the ship was supposed to be transferred to the Russian Academy of Sciences. That didn't happen, she was laid up and looted, and I don't think she re-entered service until 1999 at the same time she was reclassified back to "rescue ship" instead of a "salvage ship," with modernized rescue equipment being added.

[CraigD6er]

Going back just a bit further in time than the WW2 tanks, or even the Russian sub rescue vessel, the Ukrainians are now using caltrops!

https://www.youtube.com/watchv=oX-0518ar5M

Admittedly the Chinese versions of these are dropped by drone rather than thrown by hand, but the tyres on Russian trucks are shredded just the same. When tracked vehicles are becoming a rarity on the battlefield, and soft skin 'guntrucks' are the best some units can muster, then these seem to work just as well now as in the past.

[Raellus]

Going back just a bit further in time than the WW2 tanks, or even the Russian sub rescue vessel, the Ukrainians are now using caltrops! Admittedly the Chinese versions of these are dropped by drone rather than thrown by hand, but the tyres on Russian trucks are shredded just the same. When tracked vehicles are becoming a rarity on the battlefield, and soft skin 'guntrucks' are the best some units can muster, then these seem to work just as well now as in the past.

You beat me to the punch! Good points, and I might add that caltrops were originally conceived as an area denial weapon for use against horse-mounted cavalry. In T2k, horse cav has made a comeback, so caltrops would also continue to maintain their original raison d'etre.

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[Raellus]

Balloon Bombers

I wonder if anyone would bother trying to use balloons as bomb delivery vehicles during the Twilight War, after aircraft are grounded by lack of fuel and/or spare parts. The concept goes back at least to the 1940s. Both the British and the Japanese used balloons to deliver bombs and incendiary devices during World War II.

https://www.twz.com/news-features/ukraines-explosive-laden-balloon-operations-against-russia

Fitted with GPS to add a modicum of predictability and accuracy, Russian and Ukrainian balloon bombs are a little more high tech than their progenitors.

We also have this thread, dedicated to other tactical military uses for balloons (as observation platforms, AA obstacles, etc.):

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=6889&highlight=balloons

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[Raellus]

Ferret armored car

Maybe it's not quite old enough for this thread, but the Ferret armored car (1952- ) would be fairly long-in-the-tooth come 2000. As of 2023, at least a few were in active service with Ukrainian forces. According to Wikipedia, at least one of Ukraine's Ferret armored cars was privately purchased.

Does anyone know from whom Ukraine acquired the rest of its Ferrets

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[Vespers War]

Maybe it's not quite old enough for this thread, but the Ferret armored car (1952- ) would be fairly long-in-the-tooth come 2000. As of 2023, at least a few were in active service with Ukrainian forces. According to Wikipedia, at least one of Ukraine's Ferret armored cars was privately purchased.

Does anyone know from whom Ukraine acquired the rest of its Ferrets

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Tanks-Alot sold 6 Ferrets to Ukraine, out of a total of 120 vehicles. The remainder were a mix of Spartan, Samaritan, Sultan, Snatch, and Pinzgauer Vector.

[Raellus]

130 mm towed field gun M1954 (M-46)

Russia is pulling M46 howitzers (designed in the 1940s and manufactured in the '50s) out of storage and sending them to the front lines in Ukraine. They're so old that Russia hasn't made the 130mm ammunition that the guns use for quite some time- the Russians have to import ammo from North Korea and Iran.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/07/17/russias-new-artillery-piece-is-a-70-year-old-behemoth-firing-north-korean-shells/

Does anyone know when the Russians/Soviets stopped making 130mm ammunition IRL

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