OT: Gun Question

[kalos72]

I was thinking bout signing back up for the Army soon and I was wondering if you guys might know of a good rifle that I can buy in the states, hopefully as cheap as possible, that might give me some good practice.

I am looking for some thing as close to the feel/design of the M16 as possible to make it an easier transition. Last time round I was an average shot because I had never fired a gun before. I want to get some practice in this time around while I get back in the gym and shape up.

I live in FLA if that matters...

Suggestions

[headquarters]

rifle

my advice - all imho - is to get the rifle that will be used the most .

cheap ammo
legal /allowed at most ranges
sturdy
fun to shoot.

1st suggestion is the ruger 10/22.I recommend it for plinking and target practice as well as small game

Other than that mauser type bolt action mechanisms are what I believe to be best .You can get good moisin nagants for less than 100 us.

but check ammo supply and availability of parts and GOOD mags before buying .

gunbroker.com can get you an overview of the market before buying .

[chico20854]

If you want the feel of a M-16, get a civilian AR-15. You can get them in thousands of variations (stocks, barrel length, sights, accessories, manufacturers, etc), but when you pick one up the muscle memory from your last time in will come right back, its an eerie feeling. Nothing else has the same feel.

Bad news is the expense. These days with all the Obama panic an AR-15 type rifle will cost you $1000 or more. See ar15.com for a bewildering array of info on the AR.

If you want to practice marksmanship, there are a variety of good rifles out there cheap. A basic 10/22 sells at Wal-Mart for about $200 and the ammo is a steep 3 cents a round (5.56 is now 35-40+ cents a round). Mosins can be had for under $100 and there are a lot of bolt-actions, both surplus and hunting-type, on the used gun market now as people clear out their safes due to unemployment or to stock up on guns they feel are in danger of being banned in the near future. But the ergonomics of the AR aren't there although the fundamentals of marksmanship are there and don't change with the platform.

[pmulcahy11b]

When I was in the Army, I bought an AR-15 just for that reason. When I first enlisted and got out Basic, I had marksmanship scores that were barely enough to graduate, but worked my way up to expert with the help of that rifle. These days, there are zillions of AR-15 clones out there, so there is a lot of choice; you'll be able to shop around that way and possibly find a deal. If possible, get an AR-15A2; if you can afford it, get an A3 (which has a MIL-STD-1913 rail atop the receiver instead of a carrying handle) and a Trijicon ACOG, since almost every soldier is issued on these days. Shoot with and without it; my nephew, who went to basic over last summer, says they didn't have ACOGs when they were shooting for record in Basic.

Another possibility, especially for BRM practice, is an AR-15 "Clone" that is chambered for .22 Long Rifle instead of .223/5.56mm. This will give you some of the "muscle memory" at a lesser cost, and let you practice basic marksmanship.

[kalos72]

I aint got a grand for this so...the .22 option will have to work. Any sites you would recommend for the "clones" I have never really looked into this much,

[kcdusk]

Any sites you would recommend

Guns at this site seem cheap and plentyful.

https://www.pmulcahy.com/

(sorry paul, it was to hard to pass up)

[pmulcahy11b]

I aint got a grand for this so...the .22 option will have to work. Any sites you would recommend for the "clones" I have never really looked into this much,

I don't know if they sell then new anymore, but the one that immediately springs to mind is the EMF AP-74. Looks just like an AR-15 (except that the flash suppressor is different) -- the magazine well is even mocked up to look a 20-round AR-15 magazine, the sights are basically the same, and the controls and operation are in the right place. It is about a pound lighter than an AR-15, however. My platoon leader in the National Guard a million years ago had one, and it really does shoot the same as an AR-15, except for shorter range.

[headquarters]

10-22

I don't know if they sell then new anymore, but the one that immediately springs to mind is the EMF AP-74. Looks just like an AR-15 (except that the flash suppressor is different) -- the magazine well is even mocked up to look a 20-round AR-15 magazine, the sights are basically the same, and the controls and operation are in the right place. It is about a pound lighter than an AR-15, however. My platoon leader in the National Guard a million years ago had one, and it really does shoot the same as an AR-15, except for shorter range.

Pauls suggestion eems a good one -but availability is probably S/R

There is a drop in stock etc that resembles the ar 15 platform for the 10/22 -cant give you much detail on it though -it makes the 10/22 m16 ish .

[jester]

I ask you this,

What is the purpose of your buying the rifle

I had a girlfreind who was a Nasty Guardsgirl...oh that sounds just so wrong. She was doing the OCS thing and while waiting she asked if I knew where I could get her a dummy 16 to train with. Ah she was so sweet and cute I didn't laugh at her to badly. Since there was little point to buying your own rubber dummy rifle for training. Especialy since they cost half as much as the real thing.

So, what is your purpose for buying a "rifle." Is it to practice and learn or relearn to shoot Or is it to also practice the whole taking it down and reassembling it thing as well Or is it just for the whole cool factor

I personaly doubt you can use a rifle enough in the civilian world to develope a good sense of muscle memory. But, if that is what you want to do, then go with the real thing, IF you can find one, even the generic variants which some are more than reasonable. Or do what I am doing for my Cali legal ARs, buying the lowers and then the uppers. The downside, it is impossible to find the uppers right now, as well as it bewing hard to find the fully assembled ones. Folks are buying up the rifles, their components and the ammo like it is crazy as they expect a new ban to hit with this adminsitration.

IF it is shooting and honing your skills, then Get yourself a Ruger 10/22 and master the basics with an autoloader, or even a Marlin or AR-7. Just master the basics, trigger and breath control, sighting with proper sight alignment and then work your way up to the shooting positions, and even magazine changes with the rapid or even sustained fire. A benefit to the .22 is 500 rounds is between 12 and 20 bucks, for a AR class you can't get that much for under 300.

Thats just my two centavos.

[pmulcahy11b]

...she asked if I knew where I could get her a dummy 16 to train with.

The only thing we ever used dummy M-16s for in the Army was for bayonet training. In Basic they made the mistake of letting us use real M-16s on the Bayonet Obstacle Course -- so many were damaged the Battalion Commander reportedly chewed out the CO of our training company. I personally shattered my left handguard, troops were coming off the course with broken stocks, broken handguards, and bent barrels; one guy even had his pistol grip give way. I shudder to think what would have happened if sometime in my career I had ever gotten into a real bayonet fight...

[Legbreaker]

I had a girlfreind who was a Nasty Guardsgirl...oh that sounds just so wrong.

And yet soooo right at the same time....

:P

The only thing we ever used dummy M-16s for in the Army was for bayonet training. In Basic they made the mistake of letting us use real M-16s on the Bayonet Obstacle Course -- so many were damaged the Battalion Commander reportedly chewed out the CO of our training company. I personally shattered my left handguard, troops were coming off the course with broken stocks, broken handguards, and bent barrels; one guy even had his pistol grip give way. I shudder to think what would have happened if sometime in my career I had ever gotten into a real bayonet fight...

Been there! In my experience M16s are nothing more than plastic toys designed to fall apart at the first sign of stress. Mind you the ones we were issued were at least 20 years old and seen service in the Vietnam era.
Most could be grasped by stock and butt and twisted, sights bent waaaay out of alignment and the odd bent barrel to boot. One of the battalions best shots once had to qualify with one and at 200 metres his sights had to be on the far right side of the target in the lane to his right, just so he could graze the left side of his own!

Give me a good solid L1A1 SLR any day. 7.62mm hitting power, a barrel that doesn't bend when the wind blows and strong enough to smash over an enemies head without disintergrating.

Makes a great hunting rifle too.


Kalos, if you're looking to improve your accuracy, there are several methods of "dry firing" that don't require a range, ammunition, or even a rifle! A broomstick with a couple of nails in it for sights, a wall, pencil and paper and a friend to mark your "shots" is all that's needed. Soviets trained their Olympic marksmen this way for years (although I think they might have actually used rifles rather than sticks)!

[Tegyrius]

There is a drop in stock etc that resembles the ar 15 platform for the 10/22 -cant give you much detail on it though -it makes the 10/22 m16 ish .

There's also the Tech-Sights option, which just lets you put M16-style sights on a 10/22.

I personaly doubt you can use a rifle enough in the civilian world to develope a good sense of muscle memory.

Respectfully disagree. You can practice magazine changes and failure drills in your living room just as well as you can do dry fire practice. No, it's not live range time, but it can and will build the muscle memory for all the basic weapon manipulations.

- C.

[Targan]

Give me a good solid L1A1 SLR any day. 7.62mm hitting power, a barrel that doesn't bend when the wind blows and strong enough to smash over an enemies head without disintergrating.

Makes a great hunting rifle too.

I've said the same things many, many times on this forum and the old one. Oh how I would love to own an SLR. Fantastic rifle. Man-sized target, 600m, SLR that I've zeroed, I guarantee you a hit.

Glad we share a love of the SLR Legbreaker.

[Legbreaker]

There's just something so...."right" about the SLR. As long as it's been maintained properly and has those wonderful double leaf sights at the rear. Standard rear leaf is ok for combat, but for real shooting it's a bit on the wide side. Still, I managed ok for somebody who spent most of their time carrying an M60.

The F88 Steyr never felt as good to me. Its a fine weapon, and much easier to carry mile after mile, but it's shorter length, lighter round and odd balance didn't exactly instil the greatest confidence. On the plus side, I did fit a WWI SMLE bayonet to mine once. Damn that long blade makes it look mean and certainly scared the young'uns!

[Targan]

The F88 Steyr never felt as good to me. Its a fine weapon, and much easier to carry mile after mile, but it's shorter length, lighter round and odd balance didn't exactly instil the greatest confidence. On the plus side, I did fit a WWI SMLE bayonet to mine once. Damn that long blade makes it look mean and certainly scared the young'uns!

Cool. Don't suppose you took a photo