4e What happened to the rest of the world?

[Silent Hunter UK]

No, but it does seem clear that implied background is sort of part of their plan. I don't have an issue with that, exactly. It works better in other genres, but it's still not a terrible move (especially after the reaction their timeline got). It frees up others to answer the questions as they'd like. I had to do so for Poland and it was more satisfying and worked better for me.

PCs wouldn't know anyway. It's not like they could go on Facebook and find out.

[Raellus]

Context Matters

Of course, PCs wouldn't know everything that happened leading up to their respective then-and-now, and they probably don't need to. That said, they'd certainly be privy to at least some background information.

To draw a historical example, a grunt on Okinawa in early 1945 wouldn't know what went on during the Tehran Conference, or in the Wolf's Lair on the eve of the Kursk offensive, or the results of a US daytime strategic bombing raid on city x date y, but he would know the broad strokes of the war- Nazi invasion of Poland, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and probably something of Guadalcanal, Midway, the invasion of Sicily and Italy, and D-Day in the ETO. At the very least, I think most players want to know how their PC got into the game world- when and why did they volunteer, for example, and did they fight elsewhere prior to the campaign start date.

Also, "historical" background info can help players come up with PC concepts that they might not otherwise. For example, I've had Australian players want to play Australian PCs. They were able to find a bit in the v1 timeline that would justify Aussie military personnel being in Poland, c.2000. It also helps with justifying a PC having certain skills, like picking up a language not spoken in the AO or home country.

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[Ursus Maior]

Both countries have signed a legally binding treaty to return HK to Chinese Sovereignty so I dont really follow why there would be diplomatic upheavals if that happens.

As usual, legally binding means little in case of war. Many nations have had treaties questioned due to dire political shifts.

[Heffe]

Of course, PCs wouldn't know everything that happened leading up to their respective then-and-now, and they probably don't need to. That said, they'd certainly be privy to at least some background information.
[snip]
At the very least, I think most players want to know how their PC got into the game world- when and why did they volunteer, for example, and did they fight elsewhere prior to the campaign start date.

Also, "historical" background info can help players come up with PC concepts that they might not otherwise. For example, I've had Australian players want to play Australian PCs. They were able to find a bit in the v1 timeline that would justify Aussie military personnel being in Poland, c.2000. It also helps with justifying a PC having certain skills, like picking up a language not spoken in the AO or home country.
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This, exactly. I'm not looking to determine every bit of minutia about every nation on the planet. Even just a high level understanding of what's going on in various regions would be hugely helpful. i.e. How do things look in the Middle East The Far East What does South America look like How about Africa Having those, as Rae calls them, broad strokes, would potentially make the lives of every Ref a lot easier when they're put in a position to answer player questions. It would allow for faster off-the-cuff responses and less planning/legwork for Refs that are just looking to run an adventure.

[Raellus]

The Middle East

I can't remember why the Soviets invade Iran in v1. I don't think either superpower needs to start the war in the Middle East, but I can see both getting drawn into regional conflict eventually.

In 4e, the Gulf War happens. So, one could posit that Iraq is so destabilized by sanctions and periodic punitive air strikes that Saddam loses his grip on power. Sectarian and ethnic insurgencies flare up. Perhaps he cracks down on the local Shia. Iran steps in to protect their co-religionists. Saudi Arabia isn't about to let Iran take effective control of neighboring Iraq. The "Great Powers" of the region, Shiite Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia, both want their respective preferred sect to take power in Iraq to tip the balance of power in the region in their favor, so they launch into a proxy war there. It's spirals out of control, until both nations send large conventional forces to duke it out in Iraq. Turkey teams up with Saudi Arabia and Syria sides with Iran.

At that point, things start to get messier. Oil shipments to the West are disrupted by the fighting in the region. The US decides to intervene militarily. The Soviets aren't about to let the US win the upper hand in the Middle East, so they send forces to the Middle East.

So, for a while at least, it's:
Saudi Arabia, Turkey & the USA v. Iran, Syria, and the USSR

OR, before the superpowers intervene in the Middle East, things get really nuts when Israel, fearing Iranian victory in Iraq, decides to nuke strategic military targets in Iran...

As we saw in '91, Israel getting involved can potentially rally Muslim nations, regardless of sect, to join forces against the common foe.

Thoughts

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[Olefin]

So far the new edition publisher has shown a distinct lack of caring about the rest of the world - they basically even ignored places that obviously should have been detailed like the Czech Republic and Denmark and Norway - its like the war has been confined to just a few countries. And while communication breakdown would eventually keep GI's from all sides knowing what is going on the USN is still working and still viable - meaning that mail and newspapers and things like that would be coming over ever so often.

Thus the events in the rest of the world would be known to those in Europe - especially given the huge shipment of US draftees that occurred - they would have brought news of what was happening at home for sure.

Its a monstrous hole that really needs to be filled and could be easily with a relatively small official supplement. Keep in mind how few pages the original edition Sourcebooks devoted to the events happening elsewhere - yet those few pages built up a picture of what was happening elsewhere that you could build on. The later releases added more but at least you had some idea of what was going on in China, Korea, the US, Mexico, etc.

And the official status of "fan canon" has been debated a lot and I brought that up with Marc - but the only new release since 1997 he ever recognized as canon was mine - and I told him that frankly he was making a mistake there - that what Tegyrius and Raellus did was every bit as good as anything GDW ever did and deserved to be recognized as official canon once and for all.

Free League's current fan canon approach leaves you with no baseline to build on - thus you can easily get ten different "official" versions of what is going on outside of Poland and Sweden. Yes that leaves you free to choose your world - but it also makes it hard to write as well - i.e. what version of Great Britain will you choose if there is no official FL release. The fan canon stuff is great but they have no basis in "reality" because they have not been declared canon - and that opens the door to chaos and a lot of work by GM's that shouldnt have to be done if they want to use the 4th edition timeline and setting outside of a limited area in Europe.

And there is a market for material on the rest of the world - Raellus and I proved that with East Africa and Korea.

[pmulcahy11b]

I can't remember why the Soviets invade Iran in v1. I don't think either superpower needs to start the war in the Middle East, but I can see both getting drawn into regional conflict eventually.



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I agree with your post generally, but I think that the Sovs would invade Iran to use as a gateway to Iraq and its oils, then that they would attempt to invade (or more, roll over in their thoughts) Kuwait Saudi Arabia, the and the UAE and Gulf States. Meanwhile, Iran does have decent reserves of oil and gas (IRL, sanctions are preventing most of that oil and gas from getting out into the world), and it could serve as a base for their operations in the Gulf.

So they thought. Sounds simple, right (After all, we're the Soviet Union, and we have troops and equipment up the wazoo!) The Iranians were not simply going to roll over, and it took a lot more effort to pin down Iran. They are still suffering both small and large partisan attacks from Iranian freedom fighters and Iranian Army members gone native. And in pinning down the Iranians as best they could, Iran turned out to be more of a meat grinder than they expected.

In my T2KU, the Gulf War happened. And ever since then, the US and several of the Coalition countries maintained a decent troop presence in Kuwait, Saudi, the UAE, and the Gulf States. And while the coalition has their own problems with insurgents, they were able to being enough troops and equipment to bear to stop the Sovs cold just north of Basra. That effort cost the Sovs and the Coalition a lot of vehicles; the armor battle north of of Kuwait was larger than the Gulf War's 73 Easting.

So now, both sides are nursing their wounds after other Sov-Coalition battles, and each has their own problems with insurgents and groups who would qualify as terrorists. They largely use their remaining vehicles for special missions, their aircraft for very special missions, and their fuel. The Coalition is doing decently, but the Sov commander has nightmares every time he closes his eyes. And both sides are stuck in the Middle East; both sides know it will be a long time before they go home, and there is precious little communications to the US, Europe, or the Soviet Union.

[Olefin]

I think for me the challenge is that youre unlikely to ever get any sort of consensus on what a default timeline would look like - theres going to be too many differing opinions and in the absence of anything published theres nothing to settle any disagreements.

I 100% agree with you on this - and it wouldnt take a huge effort to correct it by the Free League team

[unipus]

Free League's current fan canon approach leaves you with no baseline to build on - thus you can easily get ten different "official" versions of what is going on outside of Poland and Sweden. Yes that leaves you free to choose your world - but it also makes it hard to write as well - i.e. what version of Great Britain will you choose if there is no official FL release. The fan canon stuff is great but they have no basis in "reality" because they have not been declared canon - and that opens the door to chaos and a lot of work by GM's that shouldnt have to be done if they want to use the 4th edition timeline and setting outside of a limited area in Europe.

As someone who just wrote an entire book about Poland (because there was insufficient official material IMO to run a game set in Poland, the game's default actual setting)... is this really anything new Doesn't every GM end up having to make calls like this to make the game work for them anyway It's not like you really need canon beyond what happens are your table, and I can't think of a single game I've ever just blanket accepted the setting of without making a few significant changes to suit my own interpretation.

Basically you've got to draw the line somewhere, but even then I doubt you'll find any two people who agree on exactly where that line should be drawn.

[mpipes]

For now, after looking at what has become available on Drive Thru RPG, there really is no direction from FL. I am afraid that FL is only interested in Sweden and Poland and the rest of the world is pretty much whatever others choose to make it.

Unless FL steps up to the plate with some overall guidance on the other war fronts, I am afraid the product line it is going to turn into a chaotic mishmash.

[Olefin]

For now, after looking at what has become available on Drive Thru RPG, there really is no direction from FL. I am afraid that FL is only interested in Sweden and Poland and the rest of the world is pretty much whatever others choose to make it.

Unless FL steps up to the plate with some overall guidance on the other war fronts, I am afraid the product line it is going to turn into a chaotic mishmash.

you are 100 percent correct in your analysis - and it doesnt have to be that way - like I said they need to step up to the plate and put out, at most, a dozen page supplement that would give just enough details on the rest of the world to be able to fill that hole - at the very least the situation in the rest of Europe - i.e. you cant have WWIII in Europe and give basically no details on France, Italy, the Balkans - heck even the V1 Sourcebook at least gave you something about them that was enough that you could have done something with it

and Unipus - you are right about what happens at the table - if the group is content with just Sweden or Poland then you will be fine - the problem will be if they want to really start exploring or say something like "is Poland all there is" and you have nothing to go on.

Worst case you could always use the old sourcebooks and what was recently put out and just try to run them with 4e rules if people want to go beyond Poland or Sweden - but some of the changes in the timeline already make a lot of the old material moot

[Tegyrius]

Unless FL steps up to the plate with some overall guidance on the other war fronts, I am afraid the product line it is going to turn into a chaotic mishmash.

Don't confuse the product line with the fan-produced offerings. The product line is whatever FL publishes under the terms of its license with FFE, and I guarantee you that they have a multi-year strategy for that. They're just metering the information they share with us on it.

(Whether or not they can follow through on that strategy is another issue entirely. There is no RPG industry... there is only a subsidized hobby.)

- C.

[unipus]

Again, a few sentences here and there in the old core books were certainly not enough to actually run the game in any other part of the world, so how much does it matter As a GM you were still pretty much (wait for it) on your own. Unless you waited patiently for modules and got lucky and you had been hoping to run a game in Iran or Appalachia or on a submarine or something.

Put this in the context of pretty much any other game and it starts to seem like a pretty silly demand.


But yeah it's pretty clear that FL has a plan, but they also have a lot of pots on the stove and not enough bandwidth to get it done in a very expedient manner.

[Ursus Maior]

I am afraid that FL is only interested in Sweden and Poland and the rest of the world is pretty much whatever others choose to make it.

Unless FL steps up to the plate with some overall guidance on the other war fronts, I am afraid the product line it is going to turn into a chaotic mishmash.

I wouldn't look at it that way. The product is still very new, it has its first expansion box coming out this winter and an adventure probably later this year (Black Madonna). It's just one of many products by FL and certainly niche. They're a small company, developing other stuff needs time. Plus, not a lot people played T2K with a completely vanilla timeline back in the days, weren't they Mixing timelines and elements is really a great opportunity rather than a drawback for me.

[Ursus Maior]

you are 100 percent correct in your analysis - and it doesnt have to be that way - like I said they need to step up to the plate and put out, at most, a dozen page supplement that would give just enough details on the rest of the world to be able to fill that hole - at the very least the situation in the rest of Europe - i.e. you cant have WWIII in Europe and give basically no details on France, Italy, the Balkans - heck even the V1 Sourcebook at least gave you something about them that was enough that you could have done something with it

From a company's point of view, putting out a small document that just gives facts and dates is probably the worst decision one could make. There is literally zero chance that anyone would like the content 100 % and recommend it. It's just fluff with no stats and game stuff and it is something no referee will use as is. The timeline given was already met with so much vitriol, it just shows this would be a colossal waste of time and money for FL.

Plus, most groups will use Poland and Sweden as their setting. Other countries in far off places hardly influence what happens there. And for Europe you get the basic facts: WW3, nukes, Soviets fighting NATO and former WP countries. Stalemate. Operation Reset. NATO fails liberating Eastern Europe. Post-collapse. Go!

Look at it this way: If you'd picked up the game in '84, what did you get

1995: China fights USSR. The USSR gets supported by WP states, because everyone's a good commie.
1996: West Germany starts WW3 while annexing East Germany while the NVA just watches. WP declares war on Germany, except for Romania, who find an ally in Yugoslavia. NATO comes to Germany's rescue, since NATO is now in business of wars of aggression; except France, Belgium, Italy, and Greece, because people speaking non-Germanic languages are apparently the only ones with a clear head.
1997: Greek and Turkey finally go to war. Italy violates Austrian neutrality, because backstabbing lunatics is now everyone's game. Meanwhile, Germany actually wins against the USSR, so they Commies go nuclear. Everyone joins into that game.
1998: France and Belgium start shooting refugees. Since everybody has been at it for 2 1/2 years already, divisions are now down to 50 %. Apparently, Germany could levy new combat effective divisions still by 1945, after 5 years of war, but by 2000 suddenly they forgot that every male above the age of 18 has had either training as a soldier or in civil defense, police, firefighting or healthcare. Italy is really successful as is Greece. The US break de facto apart over a refugee crisis. Mexico invades the US. Yugoslavia invades Hungary, despite Italy having occupied Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia, while Greece annexed Macedonia. Unclear what's left of Yugoslavia by that point except Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegowina.
1999: The US break apart even further. Europe stabilizes, because everyone's dead.
2000: Thinking that stability is bullshit, NATO wants to go for another round, fails miserably over getting its hands on a "turn back time" MacGuffin and now is worse off than ever before.

Meanwhile, I'm adopting stuff from 1E and 2E for my campaign, but boy am I glad FL isn't putting out anything like these 6 pages from 1984.