[4e] Initial thoughts on combat

[mpipes]

Rolling 3 ammo dice is actually firing four rounds, no? (i.e. The base die counts as one round, and each ammo die counts as another?)

"Yo, Sarge! Something's wrong with my A2. It's set to three-round burst, but I swear it's spittin' out four at a time!"



-

Which is just one of the reasons i do not like 4e. There are things that look good, but the combat system and ratings do not look good to me at all.

[Mahatatain]

Rolling 3 ammo dice is actually firing four rounds, no? (i.e. The base die counts as one round, and each ammo die counts as another?)

"Yo, Sarge! Something's wrong with my A2. It's set to three-round burst, but I swear it's spittin' out four at a time!"



-

No, it's more than that. The total number rolled on your ammo dice is the number of rounds fired. Therefore if you rolled 6, 4 and 3 on your 3 ammo dice then that would be 13 rounds fired.

Each combat round is 5 to 10 seconds in length so the attack dice roll represents all of your character's shots over that period and the total of the ammo dice represents the number of rounds fired. That is the key game mechanics concept that you have to get your head around - one dice roll for attacking potentially represents your character firing their weapon multiple times in one combat round.

How those rounds have actually been fired (in terms of 3 round bursts, single shots, etc) is not relevant in the game system. Taking the example above it could be that 13 rounds is made up for four 3 round bursts plus a single shot or three 3 round bursts plus four single shots or thirteen rapid fired single shots or something else. That is just "description flavour" for the GM or player though - it's not relevant in the game system mechanics.

Please note as well that:

- If you use no ammo dice on an attack then you are firing a single shot that just uses 1 round.

- If you have less rounds in your mag than the ammo dice dictate you fired then you have just emptied the mag. I'm still getting my head around what happens if you've got only a few rounds left in your mag - I'm not sure if there is a restriction on the number of ammo dice that you can roll.

That's my understanding of the system. Whether people like it or not it as a concept is up to them but, in my experience so far, it works as a combat system.

[Raellus]

Thanks for the clarification. To follow up on that, what does a weapon's ROF rating signify? How many ammo dice can be rolled?

-

[swaghauler]

No, it's more than that. The total number rolled on your ammo dice is the number of rounds fired. Therefore if you rolled 6, 4 and 3 on your 3 ammo dice then that would be 13 rounds fired.

Each combat round is 5 to 10 seconds in length so the attack dice roll represents all of your character's shots over that period and the total of the ammo dice represents the number of rounds fired. That is the key game mechanics concept that you have to get your head around - one dice roll for attacking potentially represents your character firing their weapon multiple times in one combat round.

How those rounds have actually been fired (in terms of 3 round bursts, single shots, etc) is not relevant in the game system. Taking the example above it could be that 13 rounds is made up for four 3 round bursts plus a single shot or three 3 round bursts plus four single shots or thirteen rapid fired single shots or something else. That is just "description flavour" for the GM or player though - it's not relevant in the game system mechanics.

Please note as well that:

- If you use no ammo dice on an attack then you are firing a single shot that just uses 1 round.

- If you have less rounds in your mag than the ammo dice dictate you fired then you have just emptied the mag. I'm still getting my head around what happens if you've got only a few rounds left in your mag - I'm not sure if there is a restriction on the number of ammo dice that you can roll.

That's my understanding of the system. Whether people like it or not it as a concept is up to them but, in my experience so far, it works as a combat system.

I have already decided that for each ammo die you allocate, you will spend but ONE ROUND OF AMMO... UNLESS you roll a 1on that die. On a roll of 1, TWO ROUNDS OF AMMO are expended.

[Mahatatain]

Thanks for the clarification. To follow up on that, what does a weapon's ROF rating signify? How many ammo dice can be rolled?

-

Correct. And without any real attempt at balance, which is good. Some weapons are just better than others.

You also get some interesting decisions as a player. Take the M16A1 vs. M16A2. The A1 gives you a ROF of 6 but a range of 5. The A2 gives you a ROF of 5 but a range of 6. All the other stats are the same so which is better? I'm not sure and I think that it comes down to personal preference as a player, which I like.

[Mahatatain]

I have already decided that for each ammo die you allocate, you will spend but ONE ROUND OF AMMO... UNLESS you roll a 1on that die. On a roll of 1, TWO ROUNDS OF AMMO are expended.

You will end up with combats where very low amounts of ammo are being expended in each round and the entire battle. Remember that each round is 5 to 10 seconds long. Even with a ROF 6 weapon you would be expending a maximum of 12 rounds of ammo in a combat round (if I'm understanding your house rule correctly). That seems low to me.

[swaghauler]

You will end up with combats where very low amounts of ammo are being expended in each round and the entire battle. Remember that each round is 5 to 10 seconds long. Even with a ROF 6 weapon you would be expending a maximum of 12 rounds of ammo in a combat round (if I'm understanding your house rule correctly). That seems low to me.

I set the rounds at a flat 6 seconds. I allow multiple attacks at close range (I have begun to set my ranges in meters) but at longer ranges, 6 seconds only allows for a single attack (due to the time it takes to acquire the target and then aim at it). Each attack can select the number of ammo dice it wants to use. Keep in mind that a cyclic rate of 600 rounds per minute is 10 shots per second, so giving multiple attacks their own ROF isn't groundbreaking in the least.

[Mahatatain]

I set the rounds at a flat 6 seconds. I allow multiple attacks at close range (I have begun to set my ranges in meters) but at longer ranges, 6 seconds only allows for a single attack (due to the time it takes to acquire the target and then aim at it). Each attack can select the number of ammo dice it wants to use. Keep in mind that a cyclic rate of 600 rounds per minute is 10 shots per second, so giving multiple attacks their own ROF isn't groundbreaking in the least.

Fair enough. You have quite a modified combat system there.

[swaghauler]

Fair enough. You have quite a modified combat system there.

You should see my Version 2.2 rules!

[unipus]

I'm not sure if there is a restriction on the number of ammo dice that you can roll.

There is: "You can add as many ammo dice to your attack as you like, from zero up to the rate of fire (RoF) rating of your weapon or the number of rounds left in
the magazine, whichever is lower."

(yes, this is exploitable, but has a fairly equal chance of not working out, and other drawbacks. If players are exploiting it routinely then they should be talked to and if they keep doing it, they should be punished!)

The ammo dice system isn't perfect but it does something no other system I've seen does: get rid of the myth of perfect control, and provides results that tell more of a story in each combat round. That alone is well worth it to me. I find most of the system's abstractions provide believable results and this is one of them.

[unipus]

I have already decided that for each ammo die you allocate, you will spend but ONE ROUND OF AMMO... UNLESS you roll a 1on that die. On a roll of 1, TWO ROUNDS OF AMMO are expended.

Wow, this is extremely deadly. Why wouldn't I always go max ROF at all times under this rule?

It also most definitely does not take me six seconds to engage a single enemy, especially at close range. Room clearing, for instance, I'd expect to engage 3-4 targets in that time, probably using half a mag even on semi-auto.

At long range, sure. I'm either aiming carefully, which takes significantly longer, or merely group firing to suppress.

[swaghauler]

Wow, this is extremely deadly. Why wouldn't I always go max ROF at all times under this rule?

It also most definitely does not take me six seconds to engage a single enemy, especially at close range. Room clearing, for instance, I'd expect to engage 3-4 targets in that time, probably using half a mag even on semi-auto.

At long range, sure. I'm either aiming carefully, which takes significantly longer, or merely group firing to suppress.

Because RECOIL will kill your chances to hit. I'm already beginning to plan on how to integrate it into the system since Free League failed to do so. Recoil was V2 and V2.2's best idea in the automatic fire rules. It was just poorly executed.

Under real-world conditions where you have to ID potential threats, a typical soldier or police officer can fire ONE ROUND every half a second, timed electronically with my PACT timer. Target discrimination takes about one second. So in a typical CQB encounter, you will engage a target every 1.5 to 2 seconds IF you are traversing your weapon from target to target as you are looking for threats. This "detection time" goes up as the range increases. That is why Army marksmanship training on pop-up targets allows for...

- 6 seconds for a 75M target.
- 8 seconds for a 175m target.
- 10 seconds for a 300m target.

The detection time MUST be factored into the shooting time. You can assume that a MASTER Rifleman COULD engage these targets in half the time IF that person detects the target quickly enough.

[Ursus Maior]

Okay, wow, you're completely inflating the combat system of 4E and add stuff that plays zero role in 10 seconds rounds. Even in half the time, recoil is not as much of an issue as in a single attack, which maybe lasts 2-3 seconds. All rounds in 4E are assumed to have time (literally) for multiple attacks.

We should really not be discussing your house rules in the same thread as 4E combat, because the two have nothing left in common.

[leonpoi]

Because RECOIL will kill your chances to hit. I'm already beginning to plan on how to integrate it into the system since Free League failed to do so. Recoil was V2 and V2.2's best idea in the automatic fire rules. It was just poorly executed.

Under real-world conditions where you have to ID potential threats, a typical soldier or police officer can fire ONE ROUND every half a second, timed electronically with my PACT timer. Target discrimination takes about one second. So in a typical CQB encounter, you will engage a target every 1.5 to 2 seconds IF you are traversing your weapon from target to target as you are looking for threats. This "detection time" goes up as the range increases. That is why Army marksmanship training on pop-up targets allows for...

- 6 seconds for a 75M target.
- 8 seconds for a 175m target.
- 10 seconds for a 300m target.

The detection time MUST be factored into the shooting time. You can assume that a MASTER Rifleman COULD engage these targets in half the time IF that person detects the target quickly enough.

I reckon the aim action covers this. You get a large penalty to hit unless you aim. Once you,c,"ve aimed you don,c,"t lose this bonus until the circumstances have changed (you reload, are suppressed, target significantly moves)

[unipus]

It sounds like you have created an entirely new combat system, swaghauler! Which is cool, I'd be happy to read about it. Although as I've said, I think that FL's system provides more believable results than most I've seen if you look at things from the perspective of "what do most people do in real situations" rather than "what does an ideal person do in an ideal situation," which is how most games seem to approach things for some reason.

I am very curious what they will do with the supposedly-coming urban combat rules. The rules in general are fine but do lack granularity when it comes to room clearing and other situations where 10 seconds is actually quite a lot of time where quite a lot of people could act all at once.