Rank and Age

[Legbreaker]

Back before proper "professional" armies, rank was often based purely on social status. We're all probably aware of at least a few generals and other high ranking officers who were appointed to various commands without any military experience at all.

Thankfully, those days are largely past with only a few third world militaries carrying on with such stupidity.

[kato13]

I just read a little about Custer and apparently he was a Brigadier General of Volunteers at 23. This rank did not aparently apply to the regular army.

"At the end of the Civil War (April 15, 1865), Custer was promoted to major general of volunteers, but was reduced to his permanent grade of captain in the regular army."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer

Never knew there was any sort of differentiation

[Turboswede]

Back before proper "professional" armies, rank was often based purely on social status. We're all probably aware of at least a few generals and other high ranking officers who were appointed to various commands without any military experience at all.

Thankfully, those days are largely past with only a few third world militaries carrying on with such stupidity.

For field ranks I dont think it was all a question of social status. My understanding is that in the Royal Army & Navy of the 16th-19th century officers would purchase a commission and then would purchase promotions as well. At the time officers were entitled to some of the oespoils of war so to speak so that success on the battlefield or the high seas would provide the financial ability to buy promotions and rise in rank. Depending on the success of a campaign a young officer could rise in rank quickly, but during times of peace the higher field grade ranks were dominated by those wealthy enough to purchase the grade outright.

It was actually an ingenious way to finance the military before income taxes were established. oeSo Mr. Gates, your son wants to go by Colonel Gates Swell, just send $10,000,000 to the treasury and we will rush out his pips and insignia.

So, if you were an officer of modest means, there would be a real financial motivation for going to war in addition to status and adventure.

[Adm.Lee]

I just read a little about Custer and apparently he was a Brigadier General of Volunteers at 23. This rank did not aparently apply to the regular army.

"At the end of the Civil War (April 15, 1865), Custer was promoted to major general of volunteers, but was reduced to his permanent grade of captain in the regular army."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer

Never knew there was any sort of differentiation

Yes, Volunteer rank was later known as temporary or wartime rank. I recently read a biography of Eisenhower. During the middle part of WW2, he held three and then four stars, but was still a permanent colonel. During WWI, he rose to lieutenant colonel, fell back to captain or major at the end of it, and took something like 13 years to get back to LTC.

Also during the Civil War, up to about 1910, one could have a "brevet" rank, too. A very temporary promotion, in which one's commander could authorize you to act as if you were one rank higher, likely to command a larger formation. Your pay and permanent rank, however, were unaffected until a normal promotion caught up to you.

[natehale1971]

Also remember during wartime and the activation of the Draft the US will reestablish the Army of the United States. With the Regular Army, National Guard and Reserves as the Core. But I also read that the National Guard becomes federalized as the National Guard of the United States. And how i can't remember just how it is intergrated into the Army of the United States. Does anyone else know anything about it

As soon as i find the notes for it, i'll post the info here. but from what i remember...

Since SSN has replaced serial numbers... the letters after your SSN on your dogtags and in all your paperwork indicates what kind of soldier you are.

RA (Regular Army) volunteer/professional soldier
AUS (Army of the United States) Draftee
ANG (Air National Guard)
ARNG (Army National Guard)
ER (Enllisted Reserve)
OR (Officer Reserve)
USN (US Navy)
USAF (US Air Force)
USMC (US Marine Corps)

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the War would see lots of people holding high rank at a relatively young age, with the emphasis being placed on an individual's ability to do the job rather than age and / or length of service.

Wasn't George Custer promoted to General really, really quickly Or is that an urban legend

Yes he was -- but it was a paperwork error. He was supposed to be promoted to First Lieutenant. By the time someone discovered it was a paperwork error, the Civil War was over, and his rank was reduced to Captain. He then resigned his commission, not to come back until years later -- but he was still reinstated not as a General, but as a Lieutenant Colonel, which was his rank when he died.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the War would see lots of people holding high rank at a relatively young age, with the emphasis being placed on an individual's ability to do the job rather than age and / or length of service.

Wasn't George Custer promoted to General really, really quickly Or is that an urban legend

One day, on the way home from college for the day, I stopped at a Jack-in-the-Box. I was in uniform, and an old WW2 vet (I later looked up his name through US Army Locator, but can't remember it now -- this was before the Internet) and I started talking. He told me a lot of stuff related to being an officer, and a really cool tale.

He was one of Merril's Marauders, and there was a Japanese attack that began just after dark. The gist of it was (for this thread), that "I went to sleep as a Corporal, and by daylight I was a 1st Lieutenant." So yes, under some circumstances, promotions can happen in wartime really fast!

[pmulcahy11b]

Oh, and I forgot -- IIRC in the late 1980s the military eliminated Brevet ranks. You get a field promotion, you keep it (usually -- your superiors can contest your keeping that rank).

I always remember a scene from some HBO movie about the Battle of the Bulge (sorry, once again my memory fails me as top the name). The Captain says to the 2nd Lieutenant after the LT mouths off to him, "You're an officer. Act like it."

The LT answers, "Sir, two days ago I was a Private!"

[Abbott Shaull]

I think the War would see lots of people holding high rank at a relatively young age, with the emphasis being placed on an individual's ability to do the job rather than age and / or length of service.

Wasn't George Custer promoted to General really, really quickly Or is that an urban legend

George A. Custer was another one of handful child Generals. One thing is Custer was had just Graduated from West Point so he and those in his class were at least 21-22 at the start of the war. I believe he was 23, and he was brevet promoted from 2nd Lt to Brigadier General, due to the fluid career path. Due to the fact that Civil War Officer held ranks in the Volunteers and Regular Army. Their Volunteer Rank could and general would be much higher than say Custard Regular rank of 2nd Lt which as Paul pointed out was an oversight. Also in the Civil War several Colonels had more or less purchase such ranks, due to the fact they help outfit the Regiments they had inducted into the Army with. Of course, many of these Colonels who couldn't do the job, were out of the job quickly or made aide-of-camp and shuffle around and got lost, much like happen to Custer.

Also it wasn't unheard of a NCO on becoming a field commission Officer due to the immediate need of having Officer.

Also Major Winter of the 2nd Battalion of the 506th comes to mind. The story of Band of Brothers, many of the officers of the 506th that were Majors and Lt Colonels all started out as 2nd Lt, and 1st Lt when the regiment formed. Winters went from 1st Lt to Major, from D-Day to the time he was released back into Civilian life. If the war had lasted much longer he would of been Lt. Colonel due to the fact he had been 'Acting' Battalion Commander for practically 6 months for 2nd Battalion, even though there were Majors and Lt. Colonels who probably should of been place in the position over the Captain in the Regiment and the Division. Yet so many other position were being done, by people of lesser rank, they let the Captain led the Battalion, since the same Majors and Lt Colonels were holding staff positions. Besides even in combat what a Colonel who is Regimental Combat Team CO wants he gets.

There are numerous stories such as this that happen in Civil War, where people where brevet promoted into positions due to their ability and rarely did an officer who held rank would go after the position. Largely due that for many, they would be going backwards, or they had been moved to their position for the safety of the men, to begin with.

In the Civil War, and some Spanish American War Regiments still elected the Officers of the Regiment. Once they had been inducted many of these elected Officers were found to be incapable of their jobs and replaced, with these officers being sent home, or reduced in rank and sent to some other unit.

[Targan]

I think the best thing about Custer's career was the way it ended. And it wasn't just his knee that was wounded (excuse my odd antipodean sense of humor).

[Abbott Shaull]

Probably for Custer it was for the best. He was too reckless, and if it wasn't for the Civil War probably never made it to Captain much less Lt Colonel and due to his service in the Civil War, commander of a Cavalry a Regiment.

[natehale1971]

I think the best thing about Custer's career was the way it ended. And it wasn't just his knee that was wounded (excuse my odd antipodean sense of humor).

I had read a biography that had been written about Custer (in fact it had been written by one of the Amerindian warriors who had served with him, and later against him). In that account it was said that Custer had loved and respected the Amerindian people's, but in the end it was his love for his country (and his own projected political career in the post-civil war landscape) out weighed that respect. Also in this book it was said that the only child that Custer had, was an Amerindian half-breed. It's also been said that when he was killed, his was the only body not to be desecrated by the victorious Amerindian warriors by Sitting Bull's direct order. They said he had only two injuries... a gunshot to the head, and the other to his heart.

Through out the book, the Amerindians interviewed talked about how Custer had continued to publiclly make a major deal of attention to the plight of the Amerindians who lived in the reservations was the biggest reason why he had never returned to his wartime rank of Brigadier General.

But my favourite thing about Custer is this little song.

The first and probably best-known Custer pop song was Mister Custer ("Please Mister Custer, I don't wanna go"), a Billboard #1 novelty hit of 1958 for performer Larry Verne, in which "a voice from the rear" of the Seventh Cavalry charge asks "What'm I doing here" and "Mind if I be excused the rest of the afternoon" Words and Music by Fred Darian, Al DeLory, and Joe Van Winkle. In the UK, it was successfully covered by Charlie Drake.

[Graebarde]

Brevet rank was given for acts of distinguished service. At the time of the War Between the States there were no medals as there are now. The Medal of Honor became the first medal of valor issued during the war. Custer was jumped up because he was a fireball. He helped save the day at Gettysburg, as well as more than one other major battle.

As for pay, I'm not sure if brevets recieved the full pay of the brevet rank they held. I don't think they did.


'Black Jack' pershing jumped from Captain to Brigadier with a stroke of the pen by Teddy Roosevelt. At the time there were only two grades the President could bestow on an individual, 2nd Lieutenant and Brigadier General. TR wanted Pershing promoted for distinguished services, but could no promote him to major, so appointed him Brigadier. Jumped over ALL the majors, light colonels and full bulls in the army at the time as well as several Captains senior to him, He was NOT a popular man after that, as if he was before, but he was a very grand officer from what I've read. though not overly popular. But you do not have to be popular to be successful and good at the job.

Grae
(back from a hiatus of boredom)

[Targan]

Welcome back Grae. Always better when you're around.