Operation Manifest Destiny Ruminations

[Fusilier]

How susceptible are these to adverse weather The larger the more difficult to handle I recall this was a difficulty in German aircraft when bombing London in WW1. With no weather reports coming in, you could have an aircraft in trouble very quickly before they realize.

[Targan]

How susceptible are these to adverse weather The larger the more difficult to handle I recall this was a difficulty in German aircraft when bombing London in WW1. With no weather reports coming in, you could have an aircraft in trouble very quickly before they realize.

I agree. The airships talked about in Airlords of the Ozarks were all of the Lifting Body Airship design so they can handle adverse weather a little better than a standard blimp or zeppelin and are more fuel efficient but only in calm weather or a breeze would have have optimum performance. A tail wind they could handle okay but a cross wind or a head wind will degrade their performance. A gale would be very dangerous and could possibly only be negotiated if it was a tail wind. I predict that trying to fly any airhip in a storm would be suicidal.

To a certain extent an airship pilot could try to use changes in altitude to find more favourable wind conditions but in an unpressurised gondola and without oxygen there would be a similar upper limit to that experienced by pilots all the way back to World War One.

[Webstral]

How susceptible are these to adverse weather The larger the more difficult to handle I recall this was a difficulty in German aircraft when bombing London in WW1. With no weather reports coming in, you could have an aircraft in trouble very quickly before they realize.

On the contrary, the reading I've been doing online claims that the larger airships are more stable than the smaller ones. The analogy is larger ships (like supertankers) compared to smaller ships. The buffeting of waves is felt less by the larger ships; the buffeting of wind is felt less by larger airships because they have greater inertia.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

But with a larger surface area for the winds to act upon, it would require a stronger airframe (with corresponding greater weight) to handle the increased forces placed upon it.

[Webstral]

True--just as a supertanker requires a structure capable of supporting the its larger hull and mass vis-a-vis a smaller tanker. The airship designers of 2001 are going to have to find the limits of their fabrication capabilities and build within them.

Esteemed colleagues, Im reading a lot of idle speculation about the ability of airships to do the simple task of moving cargo while theres a stiff breeze blowing--as if somehow LTA was a new technology with no track record. German-operated airships in the 1930s were a quantum leap ahead of the machines that bombed London during the First World War. Large airships carried luxury passengers at a high price. The affluent of the Depression would not have paid todays equivalent of thousands of dollars for a shaky ride on a deathtrap. All this was sixty years prior to the events of Twilight: 2000.

There are specific challenges to be overcome in the construction and operation of airships in Twilight: 2000. Lets address them rather than try to rewrite aeronautical history with unfounded observations about suicide trips and the like. Here are a couple of ideas for objections to airships:

Q: Wheres the helium going to come from
A: Good question. The map Kato provided is a good starting point. As a matter of interest, there are also small helium mines in Arizona, too. In addition to being found in natural gas fields, helium is a byproduct of U-235 decay; so wherever uranium is mined one gets pockets of helium. At any rate, very substantial supplies are available in Oklahoma and the Texas Panhandleterritory MilGov controls.

Q: What if helium cant be made available
A: Then MilGov uses hydrogen.

Q: Isnt hydrogen much too dangerous What about the Hindenburg
A: The use of hydrogen is dangerous. oeToo dangerous is a judgment call. If MilGov deems airship operation sufficiently critical, then the Air Force will use hydrogen-lifted airships. Its been done. There are ways to mitigate the danger, too. One of the Hindenburgs problems was that it was designed for helium use but wound up using hydrogen because the US imposed an embargo on helium sales to Germany.

Q: Arent airships just too vulnerable to bad weather
A: Transatlantic airship travel operated for years. The weather in the North Atlantic is as nasty as it is anywhere in the world. Unpressurized airships couldnt simply fly above it. They had to fly through it; yet somehow they got repeat passengers. Yes, bad weather presents a problem. No, it is not an insurmountable problem. If it were, thered have been no airship industry. Airships continue to operate today, albeit in niche applications. Again, there is a cost-benefit ratio in the minds of MilGov that must be considered.

Q: Can a proper airframe for an airship be manufactured in Colorado in 2000
A: Now were getting somewhere. The answer is that I dont know. The technology isnt mysterious. The San Francisco public library has a few relevant titles. Even the Marin County library system has one. Colorado Springs is the home of the USAF Academy. You can bet there will be a few volumes on airships in there. Although I cant perform the engineering, its not cutting edge technology. Surely there are a few engineers left in Colorado who can do the work. The real question is whether or not a workable airframe can be manufactured given the conditions in Colorado. There is plenty of aluminum around, given that plenty of aircraft will be grounded at commercial airports and military airfields. If making the airships commands sufficiently high priority, there is electricity available from the surviving nuke plant for rendering scrap aluminum. If anyone has the personnel necessary to do the work on a new airframe, the Joint Chiefs have those people.

Q: What materials will be used for the airbag
A: Another good question. Ive given that one the best answer I can earlier in the thread. At the very least, the wreckage of the Columbia might be used to build a couple of small airships to get the ball rolling. The technology to construct the skin of an airship isnt new. The real trick is producing or finding enough material of the desired tensile strength to skin airships. Scavenging hot air balloons might be a good place to start.

Q: How about the fuel
A: Since the airship doesnt require thrust to achieve lift, aviation gas probably isnt necessary. In any event, an airship will use much energy to move a ton of cargo than a heavier-than-aircraft.

Q: How will the airship be made a viable military platform
A: If the airship can be made into a gunship, thats a bonus. The primary role of the airship is to move cargo between friendly areas that are separated by hostile territory. The airship is an air truck with a technology and resource requirements that are within the capabilities of MilGov in early 2001

Q: Can all of this be done in a cost-effective manner
A: Now weve come to the $64,000 question. I dont know the answer. I see the Joint Chiefs in a tough spot. Even without the meteorological changes of Howling Wilderness, MilGov has real problems. More than half the nations population is dead. The prewar stocks of fuel are gone. The prewar machines are breaking down. A fragile equilibrium seems to have come over the nation by the beginning of 2001, but many forces are at work to shatter that equilibrium. If the pieces of the industrial society are not put back together such that they can reinforce each other as they must to survive, then America will slide further backwards into the darkness. An industrial society requires an effective and working transportation network. The remnants of the US infrastructure will be breaking up soon, and the routes are menaced by brigands. The remaining MilGov enclaves cannot support each other because they are separated by miles of hostile territory.
Along comes the airship from Missouri. Granted, someone could have thought of it before; but no one did. Colorado Springs has something like three million people and surpluses such that the Joint Chiefs are considering reopening the Denver mint. They have an agricultural base, manufacturing, a limited budget of fossil fuels from Wyoming, limited minerals from mines in the Rockies, academic and engineers, and an army. Husbanding these resources wont necessarily propagate them. If ever there was an investment that could arrest the downward spiral, airships are that investment.
Granted, airships arent going to replace rail and shipping for bulk cargoes. While it might be practical to move some seed from one location to another, the volume of food necessary to keep tens or hundreds of thousands of people alive probably cant be moved by airship. Ammunition, rifles, machine guns, and mortars probably can be moved to critical locations. Critical machines and spare parts probably can be moved to keep what has survived to this point functional a while longer. High-value raw materials might be moved. Experts can be moved from place to place to increase agricultural and industrial productivity. Infantry can be moved from place to place so that the nations surviving military resources can be concentrated for decisive action. All-important lubricants can be moved. Did I mention the spare parts Just getting working radios into all of the MilGov cantonments will change everything. Once the Joint Chiefs see the possibilities, I believe they will commit everything they can to assembling a fleet of airships to turn the downward spiral right side up.

In the end, theres a degree of suspension of disbelief required. A great deal is simply unknown. I do think that airships in Colorado are not a very significant drain on ones stock of suspension of disbelief. They are the right technology for the occasion.

Webstral

[Targan]

Q: Arent airships just too vulnerable to bad weather
A: Transatlantic airship travel operated for years. The weather in the North Atlantic is as nasty as it is anywhere in the world. Unpressurized airships couldnt simply fly above it. They had to fly through it; yet somehow they got repeat passengers. Yes, bad weather presents a problem. No, it is not an insurmountable problem. If it were, thered have been no airship industry. Airships continue to operate today, albeit in niche applications. Again, there is a cost-benefit ratio in the minds of MilGov that must be considered.

I'm not an idiot and I know something of history. Yes zeppelins were used for trans-Atlantic travel. But they were absolutely HUGE craft with lots of leeway in their load and stress bearing frames. Isn't the discussion we are having about airships of a similar size to those described in Airlords of the Ozarks I'm pretty sure a lighter-than-air craft of that size is going to have a really tough time of things in a gale or a storm.

[Webstral]

I'm not an idiot and I know something of history. Yes zeppelins were used for trans-Atlantic travel. But they were absolutely HUGE craft with lots of leeway in their load and stress bearing frames. Isn't the discussion we are having about airships of a similar size to those described in Airlords of the Ozarks I'm pretty sure a lighter-than-air craft of that size is going to have a really tough time of things in a gale or a storm.

1) There are currently airships of a variety of sizes operating in many locations. Some of them are even forced to deal with rough weather from time to time.
2) We're talking about airships of whatever size is going to be feasible. Obviously, bigger is better, provided suitable airframes can be fabricated.
3) Let's suppose we are limited to the small, slow airships of Airlords of the Ozarks and that they do have a tough time in extreme weather. What of it Having experienced airship pilots available will help the new crews learn the do's and don'ts quickly. If airships can accomplish the mission by adjusting their operational patterns and accepting a certain loss rate, then a collection of posthumous Air Medals for the airship crews who became casualties is just one more price to be paid. It's sad for the air crews, but we do make a habit of discussing the deaths of millions in our fictional world.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

While I believe airships are a good idea on the whole, the construction and use of them may be resisted by some in positions of command.
The resources that are required to construct airships are probably in high demand for other projects also. Yes, airships might speed up general recovery, but it only takes one quick look through history to see how slow changes to thinking can take...

Yes they will be built and put to use but I doubt very many would be constructed very quickly - maybe a handful a year.

[Targan]

I think that MilGov would be very, very careful not to lose any airships to catastrophic failure because once available stores of helium are gone that is it. You could power airships using internal combustion engines burning a variety of fuels (including alcohol or biodiesel) but I can't see anybody but the French being able to produce helium in industrial quantities in the decade after the nukes fly. And I very much doubt that hydrogen would be seen as a viable lifting gas option by the poor bastards expected to fly the airships.

[kato13]

but I can't see anybody but the French being able to produce helium in industrial quantities in the decade after the nukes fly.

Helium production is dependent on geology not technology. Numerous Helium refinery plants were developed in the US with World War I level technology. As for the resource itself, by a fluke of geography the US plain states are rich in Helium. The French simply don't have the gas resource. It is possible they could get it from Tunisian natural gas facilities, but it is not present within their borders. Poland and Russia have the remaining major sources. These will be mapped out in my new resource map.

[Targan]

Helium production is dependent on geology not technology. Numerous Helium refinery plants were developed in the US with World War I level technology. As for the resource itself, by a fluke of geography the US plain states are rich in Helium. The French simply don't have the gas resource.

In that case perhaps MilGov could benefit from an arrangement with CivGov (which has significant control among the plain states IIRC). Perhaps CivGov could be encouraged to get a helium production process online in exchange for MilGov assistance to build a few airships of its own.

[kato13]

Milgov would have forces near the refinery plants in Colorado and Oklahoma. I actually think they are dominant in Kansas as well. Unfortunately I cannot overlay resources and units.






The 95th Infantry, the 100th Infantry and the 49 Armored are all near Helium refineries.

[Targan]

Ah. I'm not having much luck with this thread am I. I think I'll just shut up now.

[kato13]

Ah. I'm not having much luck with this thread am I. I think I'll just shut up now.

Didn't mean to undercut you but I happened to be working on that data (Both the Mexican unit locations and Helium resources). The Mexicans have nearly overrun the Helium Reserve. That could make for some interesting conflict.

[Adm.Lee]

Regarding weather, one of the most experienced Zeppelin pilots was asked about how he dealt with flying through bad weather in his long career. His answer: "I always fly around storms." And this is with 1900-1930 weather reporting.

It's a bit simplistic, but I think if the crew is cautious enough and the mission planners are aware of the difficulties, weather should not be that much of a problem.