Persia in the Twilight War

[Adm.Lee]

Balance of Forces

One thing that struck me is the disparity of forces.

...

So, in 2000, the Soviets have a clear operational advantage in Iran. It looks like Iran could be the site of the Twilight War's last major conventional battles (and quite possibly nuclear ones...).

Geography may be the key you are missing, then. Iran is BIG-- there is a large no-man's-land between the forces, and trying to expand would leave one's flanks hanging in air.

One of my *other* favorite GDW games from the '80s was the "Third World War" series, which covered conventional combat in Germany, Norway, the Balkans and Iraq-Iran ca.1985. They could be played all together, most of the maps actually linked. I bring this up because the Iran game almost always featured lots of empty space, and both US Soviet sides had a lot of empty flanks to watch. Unfortunately, one could not break down divisions in that game*, so quite often it became a sideshow really quickly as both sides would turtle in some mountains or cities. The main show, of course, was a Soviet drive across north Germany.

[*In the Norway game, the Soviets had some breakdowns, to enable air and sea lift. ]

[Raellus]

Geography may be the key you are missing, then. Iran is BIG-- there is a large no-man's-land between the forces, and trying to expand would leave one's flanks hanging in air.

That's a very valid point, Admiral, and perhaps that has something to do that with the lack of movement in 2000.

On the other hand, the Soviets have an edge in both numbers and mobility and I would imagine that both sides would have some at least some operational experience in, and greater comfort level with, fighting with exposed flanks, especially with veterans of Europe in the ranks.

Also, it seems that a de facto cantonment system has developed in Iran, with both sides centered around Iran's major cities. The Soviets would have merely to threaten the ports to force a NATO withdrawal (or tac-nuke strike).

Perhaps the major factor precluding a Soviet offensive in 2000 is the chaos in their rear (i.e. several divisions in the Caucuses and "-stans" having mutinied). The Soviets' supply lines are thus threatened before an offensive is even launched.

It would be fun to play out a Soviet offensive/NATO defense c. late 2000 on an operational level. I'll have to look into that "Third World War" game.

[kato13]

From memory I don't think the RDF Sourcebook mentioned specific nuke targets.

Other than the generic "oil fields" and "refineries" the only specific target is Riyadh.

If anyone is interested in unit locations, the page below was a prototype I used to test a few things but it might be useful to someone who wants to figure what units are where.

http://games.juhlin.com/maps/RDF_sourcebook.html

This is a prototype and has many issues, like not listing the Country (in the on unit click popup) and collocated units are not represented (Only the largest unit at a single location is shown). I fixed those in my latest version (which is not ready).

Can you guys tell me how long the page takes to load and what browser you are using. First time load will most be longer than when you return to the page as a lot of the javascript will be cached.

[headquarters]

airborne soviets

Geography may be the key you are missing, then. Iran is BIG-- there is a large no-man's-land between the forces, and trying to expand would leave one's flanks hanging in air.

One of my *other* favorite GDW games from the '80s was the "Third World War" series, which covered conventional combat in Germany, Norway, the Balkans and Iraq-Iran ca.1985. They could be played all together, most of the maps actually linked. I bring this up because the Iran game almost always featured lots of empty space, and both US Soviet sides had a lot of empty flanks to watch. Unfortunately, one could not break down divisions in that game*, so quite often it became a sideshow really quickly as both sides would turtle in some mountains or cities. The main show, of course, was a Soviet drive across north Germany.

[*In the Norway game, the Soviets had some breakdowns, to enable air and sea lift. ]

When I was in they told us that our plans were made to repel amongst other things an airborne operation of Soviets ,they would take the main roads and strand our units in invaluable areas .they told us that in the event of a full blown war the soviets could drop 5 or 6 brigades simultanously .Apparently the airborne invasion gave only 2 1/2 - 4 hours warning before it all went Red Dawn .An amphibious assault was also envisioned as a part of the operation .The assault would have 15 -30 hours warning time and could comprise as many as 11 brigades.

Seeing as we only had 2 brigades in active duty and the rest mothballed as a mobilization defense it was very much a theoretical game of speed and lucky circumstances up here on Natos north flank .The North has limited road systems and a lot of fjords cutting into it - for a tactical game of conventional warfare I guess it would be an interesting match .(Did the game take into account our own little maginot line that we had built in Troms It didnt go all the way across but still,a concrete bunker fortress is a novelty in our days of warfighting.)

As for real life I dont think we could have done much against the Soviets.Our real defense was our close alignment with the US that made any move against us a possible trigger for a big conflict .On the ground I guess the plan was to hold enclaves /provinces that could be used as staging areas until the designated allied forces arrived -with their airpower- and mobilize our army as best we could in these areas .And then break out I guess. ( The threat of nuclear war ,other political events not taken into account and just focusing on the war on the ground I mean .)

[Rainbow Six]

Can you guys tell me how long the page takes to load and what browser you are using. First time load will most be longer than when you return to the page as a lot of the javascript will be cached.

Took about thirty seconds to load for me from start to finish using IE.

Well done on the map...looks good...

[Targan]

As for real life I dont think we could have done much against the Soviets.Our real defense was our close alignment with the US that made any move against us a possible trigger for a big conflict.

Right up to today we here in Australia rely on our close friendship with the US to be a deterrant against outside military hostility. A full blown war between the US and China would suck for Australia - we have very strong trade ties to China.

[Turboswede]

As for real life I dont think we could have done much against the Soviets.Our real defense was our close alignment with the US that made any move against us a possible trigger for a big conflict .On the ground I guess the plan was to hold enclaves /provinces that could be used as staging areas until the designated allied forces arrived -with their airpower- and mobilize our army as best we could in these areas .And then break out I guess. ( The threat of nuclear war ,other political events not taken into account and just focusing on the war on the ground I mean .)

I think the Swedes would have helped and I always thought that their omission from the original T2K timeline was a glaring problem. I come from a Swedish military family and in my conversations with former officers there is a lot of guilt around the actions (or lack of action) taken by Sweden in the Second World War My Grandfathers generation in particular felt a great deal of shame for allowing German forces into Norway.

What is even a worse scar on the Swedish psyche is not backing the Fins against the Russians in the Winter War. About 40,000 Swedish military personnel wanted to volunteer to help the Fins but the Swedish government was terrified of antagonizing the Soviets so it made serving in Finland as difficult as possible. I have relatives who did take leaves of absence to hike up to Kiruna to volunteer, but there were a lot more army personnel who were not allowed to volunteer.

My fathers generation was also no fan of the Soviets, during the Sub incursions of the 60s and 70s there was a lot of debate around sinking Soviet submarines detected in Swedish waters. From what I have heard, there were frequent incidents when Captains of Swedish vessels reluctantly gave the order to use dummy depth charges and torpedoes against Soviet subs.

I do not think the Swedes would have sat back and let the Soviets violate their airspace to attack Norway, Iceland, the U.K. and the rest of Western Europe. After speaking with a number of Swedish Air Force and Naval officers, I get the feeling a lot of them were in fact, itching for a fight.

[Adm.Lee]

From Persia to Norway...

No, I don't remember any fortified line, but the game did have reduced stacking for mountains and passes, and there were quite a few choke points along the coast.

I remember the NATO player could roll for mobilization, getting more Norwegians into action sooner. If the Soviets tried for a flat-footed attack, it helped them a lot.

Soviet air and amphibious lift in the game was maybe 5 regimental-equivalents, but I'm not sure about that anymore. If you played the combined games, the Pact got something more than 12 Regiments' worth of airlift, which could be directed to any theater. {Seeing a whole corps' worth of desant was pretty impressive. My favorite plan was to drop them all over the US ReForGer sites along the Rhine, and negate 3+ divisions of Americans.} I think the game designated 1 Soviet MRD as amphibious-capable, and allocated 1 desant division to the northern theater. There was also an airmobile brigade, which was really, really useful.

The Soviets had an option to allocate a "strategic reserve force," which I think was 1 or 2 armies of Cat 2 divisions, which cost the Pact player VPs to send to the theater. I don't remember it as being worth sending, except there might have been a second airmobile brigade.

I remember the games usually wound up in a stalemate around Narvik or Tromso, with the Pact running out of assault-worthy forces, and NATO building up light troops. Victory keyed on the Pact capture of airfields to allow the Northern Fleet to sortie, and I don't remember too many victories for the Pact.

FWIW, I remember the Norwegian forces as being pretty important, since they were there, obviously, and rated at proficiency equal to the US and West Germans.

Dag, now you've got me wanting to dig it out again!

When I was in they told us that our plans were made to repel amongst other things an airborne operation of Soviets ,they would take the main roads and strand our units in invaluable areas .they told us that in the event of a full blown war the soviets could drop 5 or 6 brigades simultanously .Apparently the airborne invasion gave only 2 1/2 - 4 hours warning before it all went Red Dawn .An amphibious assault was also envisioned as a part of the operation .The assault would have 15 -30 hours warning time and could comprise as many as 11 brigades.

Seeing as we only had 2 brigades in active duty and the rest mothballed as a mobilization defense it was very much a theoretical game of speed and lucky circumstances up here on Natos north flank .The North has limited road systems and a lot of fjords cutting into it - for a tactical game of conventional warfare I guess it would be an interesting match .(Did the game take into account our own little maginot line that we had built in Troms It didnt go all the way across but still,a concrete bunker fortress is a novelty in our days of warfighting.)

As for real life I dont think we could have done much against the Soviets.Our real defense was our close alignment with the US that made any move against us a possible trigger for a big conflict .On the ground I guess the plan was to hold enclaves /provinces that could be used as staging areas until the designated allied forces arrived -with their airpower- and mobilize our army as best we could in these areas .And then break out I guess. ( The threat of nuclear war ,other political events not taken into account and just focusing on the war on the ground I mean .)

Edit: I crossed Turboswede's post. In TWW, the Swedes and Finns were presumed neutral, but the Pact could request/demand passage rights to get to Norway. The NATO player secretly drew chits to see if or how strongly the two would resist. My recollection is that if either nation resisted, it really wrecked the Pact's chances.

[kato13]

Took about thirty seconds to load for me from start to finish using IE.

Well done on the map...looks good...

Thanks

Load time is a little longer than I had hoped but good to know. My biggest problem with testing is the fact that I am directly connected to my webserver so my load times are very short.

[Graebarde]

Right up to today we here in Australia rely on our close friendship with the US to be a deterrant against outside military hostility. A full blown war between the US and China would suck for Australia - we have very strong trade ties to China.

It's only money friend. China only wants your money and resources.

[Targan]

It's only money friend. China only wants your money and resources.

So true. It scares me actually. What China really, really wants is Australia's coal and iron ore. Chinese government-owned companies are trying to buy up the biggest stakes they can in Australia's (and especially Western Australia's) iron ore companies and reserves. And they are becoming increasingly keen on the idea that we'll sell them uranium too.

We here in Australia very much enjoy the massive economic boom that China's money provides but lets face it - if they could get away with it they just take our resources rather than buy them. If the US ever goes down the toilet in a big way Australia will be in for a world of hurt.

[kato13]

If the US ever goes down the toilet in a big way Australia will be in for a world of hurt.

They would only outnumber you 50 to one. C'mon you guys could take them.

[Targan]

They would only outnumber you 50 to one. C'mon you guys could take them.

Well its true that Australian forces usually 'fight above their weight'. The Korean and Vietnam Wars are good examples, we really kicked some ass in our own small way. There are just so few of us compared to the size of the continent we live on.

If you nice Americans could just keep selling us that excellent quality military gear, we'll keep on handing over the cash - which we got from China.

[natehale1971]

Well its true that Australian forces usually 'fight above their weight'. The Korean and Vietnam Wars are good examples, we really kicked some ass in our own small way. There are just so few of us compared to the size of the continent we live on.

If you nice Americans could just keep selling us that excellent quality military gear, we'll keep on handing over the cash - which we got from China.

My dad and uncle once told me a story about a group of Aussies who where on leave in Veitnam during the war. The eight men had 'borrowed' two jeeps, one was full of ammo and the other was full of beer. They then asked for directions for the combat zone, everyone figured it was so they could stay far.. far away from the combat zone because they had said they where going hunting... they came back totally drunk a few days later to buy more beer and ammo. And they had a shitload of NVA and VC gear that they 'traded' for the beer and ammo.

When asked what the hell are you hunting 'We're hunting VC... but the damn NVA keep getting in the way.'

They did that for two weeks before they went home.

Point of the story... Don't mess with the Aussies, they are either totally insane. Or they get really deadly when they are totally liquered up.

[Matt Wiser]

Our group at CSU Fresno ran a campaign in Iran: we had done the first set of adventures in Poland (Escape from Kalisz, Black Madonna, Krakow), but not the Vistula or Warsaw; before heading to take part in the evac home, but when we found out our vehicles would be turned over to the Germans, we headed to Rostock, which is where we found two Frosch-class LSTs getting ready to sail to Bremerhaven. After an exchange of some of the gold from a Kelly's Heroes type adventure, we sailed to Israel instead. IMI refitted our vehicles (for some of the gold, naturally) and off we went via Jordan and Iraq. There was a running gun battle from As Samawah down through An Nasiriya and finally the outskirts of Basra, before running into some Green Berets advising anti-regime Iraqis. After getting into Iran, we were attached to the 101st, and then got sent to Lordegan, where we would be the armor support for 3/187 (the Lordegan garrison), and also be available for any special missions tasked by the 101st. Didn't do King's Ransom per se, but used it as background. Our GM had some NPCs get the Crown Jewels. Before we could do any more, it was graduation time for about half of the folks in the group, and that was the end of that.