Keeping or Changing Rank in T2K

[Raellus]

Let's say a captain in the Air Force finds himself grounded and out of his element, c. 2000. With very few (if any) replacement planes available, there's little to no chance of this officer serving in his previous capacity. The army/marines needs riflemen. So, the captain is "transfered" to the infantry. What would his effective rank be

This officer probably has very little experience in ground combat and/or leading an infantry company or platoon so it wouldn't be likely his AF rank would garner him the same responsibilities in the army. Would he still be called "Captain" Would he have to start at the bottom of the rank totem pole I can't imagine someone who'd worked his way up the ladder for years (and/or gone to one of the academies/officer schools) dealing very well with being addressed as "private" or "spicialist" or whatever. I know that certain ranks with the same name (for example lieutenant in the army and lieutenant in the navy) aren't really equivalent. Would he pick up the army equivalent of the rank he'd held in the AF

I just wonder how this would be handled. I imagine it would be quite common for AF, army pilots, and navy personel to find themselves stuck in a rifle company and I'm trying to figure out how to handle it.

[kato13]

Warrant Officers Above all enlisted but below all officers in the chain of command would seem appropriate.

[Raellus]

Warrant Officers Above all enlisted but below all officers in the chain of command would seem appropriate.

Good call. But what about their responsibilities in the field, though Would a former navy Lt.. commander, now army warrant officer, be given command of an infantry platoon when pretty much all of the platoon's NCOs would have way more applicable experience and could run it a whole lot better. Know what I mean

[kato13]

Good call. But what about their responsibilities in the field, though Would a former navy Lt.. commander, now army warrant officer, be given command of an infantry platoon when pretty much all of the platoon's NCOs would have way more applicable experience and could run it a whole lot better. Know what I mean

I would hope that they would defer to their NCO's opinions but the "Officer trumps enlisted" rule, while illogical at times, is what the army is based on. As a kid I could never understand how a fresh lieutenant was superior to a 30 year NCO, but that is the system. I would also hope that direct commission and administrative officers would consider themselves at a lower rank during combat and defer to lower ranking officers from combat branches, but in the end it will depend on the personality of the officer as to whether or not they would do so.

[Ramjam]

As Kato posted, you would hope the unexperienced officer would let the experienced NCO run the show and learn from it.

And if that failed in the world of TW2K a bad officer would be very deaded to friendly fire in no time.

But I do remember the Air force officer in 'Red Storm Rising' who was a weather man leading a squad of USMCs in Iceland after the Russians had taken the island.

He had the rank and the Marines followed his orders but he deffered to the Sgt's experience when needed.

[Adm.Lee]

The zoomie in "Red Storm Rising" seemed a textbook example of what to do as a butter-bar (2nd Lt.)-- lead, inspire, do what the sergeant said.

As for a more experienced officer from the AF or Navy joining the infantry-- one would hope that he/she would get some basic (re)training, and/or be posted to a staff position. Since most of T2k seems to have a lot of rank inflation (lots of NCOs, not many privates left), I think rank is less important than experience and training in a lot of units.

In the one PbP I've tried to play recently, I had a Navy officer PC who had lots of experience (33 months in 1st ed.), but rolled low on rank, so ended up a 1st Lt. I figured he spent a lot of time in the peacetime Navy, then some in the wartime Navy, and transferred to the Army in '99 for some re-training. I figured some personality clashes with his Navy chain of command led to his not being promoted faster, and urged him to give the Army a try.

Winter cantonment seems like a logical time for lots of grounded zoomies and squids to be trained as infantry, IMO. There's even a more modern name for it. I read in the last few years of the "Blue to Green" program, in which the US Department of Defense was offering financial incentives to Air Force and Navy personnel to transfer to the Army, as those two services were losing numbers, in favor of an increase in the Army's strength.

So, to answer the original question, I would say the former pilot is paid () as a Captain, but considered as a brand-new lieutenant, at least for a while. Were I his Battalion CO, I would make him a staffer, or at most the XO of a company. He's probably been a leader of at least a flight, and had lots of admin tasks already, so I would use him for that stuff. I wouldn't move him on to a platoon without training (probably run by Division) as an infantry officer. Once he's shown some stuff, then move him on to a platoon before a company. This could easily mean he's going to be taking orders from a junior lieutenant or even an NCO company commander. If he can handle that, then he'll be OK with me.

[natehale1971]

As Adm.Lee stated... The USAF/USN officers would retain their rank because the only way to reduce an officer's rank is court-martials if i remember right. But they would be considered 'staff' officers... sort of like a IG, JAG, Medical Corps or Chaplin Corps until they got the training to be line officers (ie infantry, armor, arty, ect.).

The Army has what i think is called a 'Warrior Course' for prior service USAF and USN enlisted personnel who are transfering over to the US Army. I think it's a four week training course.

I have a feeling that these Officers would go through a crash course on infantry tactics, such as given to support services enlisted personnel to fill out combat arms as seen in the reorganization of the 5ID article I found online. In that article it said that enlisted support personnel where given crash course on infantry operations, and officers where trained to take over their jobs in the support services (i guess you could say that USAF Lt. Colonel is now serving food).

But in my campaign setting, we had done something a little different. The USAF created "guntruck squadrons" for pilots and flight crew who no longer had aircraft to fly or maintain. these 'guntruck sqadrons' would be assigned to rear echelon convoy escort and security enforcement duties.

While the USN created Naval Infantry Battalions that trained both officers and enlisted to fight as a cohesive unit. The navy had thse battalions being trained by USN SEALs and USMC... I recently discovered that the USN is working at creating Naval Infantry Battalions in real life using those men who 'washed out' of the SEALs program... I dont know if it is true, if not it really should be.

[Targan]

A pilot would have done the escape and evasion course and basic training so he'd at least have some basic skills useful to an infantryman. Also you don't get to be a pilot unless you are intelligent and have a relatively even temperament so you'd probably be a pretty fast learner.

Having said these things I think that unless circumstances dictated that infantryman was the only role for him, there would be better positions to put a grounded pilot in than infantryman. Intelligence maybe Some kind of REMF role would make more sense.

In my campaign Major Po has an F-15E pilot in his unit, Lt John Johnson. Po's unit found Johnson working as a tinker waaay behind enemy lines in Poland and Po took Johnson back to Bremerhaven with him. Along the way Johnson proved to be very brave, determined and resourceful so Po decided to keep him around, as his personal gyrocopter pilot. Most of the time Po uses Johnson in a staff role but when he has had to Johnson has proved to be a capable warrior on the ground.

[Trooper]

I think that byrocratic diffrences will quickly disappear after the first nukes have hit their targets. For example in Finland you are required to fight as infantry even if you have served in the navy or in the air force. Basic training is same in all branches of FDF. And the same idea is followed in all training. For example naval officer student have to do much feared archipelago warfare course. Idea is quite simple. Enemy is near and little extra infantry training won`t kill you even if you are navy cook.

You have to train your men before you start sending men to naval infantry units or air force field combat units. Germans learned that fact after they send Luftwaffe Field Divisions to Russian Front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_Field_Division

[pmulcahy11b]

I think that, depending on the MOS/branch of the individual involved, there would be a variation of the "stupid LT" syndrome that all Sergeants, particularly Platoon Sergeants, have to go through, unless they get really lucky. The former USAF/USN officer may be more insufferable, however, unless they are smart enough to know that they don't know anything. The former USAF/USN officer would probably be best off as a staff officer, as would senior NCOs; lower ranks would probably help each other out to learn what's what.

[Legbreaker]

Rank is rank and a captain of any corp will always outrank a lieutenant of any other corp. A good captain will listen to the lieutenant (and NCOs) of the more relevant corp, and hopefully act accordingly.

The captain would remain a captain and likely remain in the USAF. They would however not be used in a combat role, at least not to begin with.
Chances are they'd be assigned to a supporting position, perhaps commanding a maintence unit and eventually be given some rudimentary infantry training.

As the war progressed, it's likely their entire squadron would be re-roled and undertake retraining in a similar way as some WWII infantry units were retrained as armour.

[copeab]

To be contrarian, in most groups I've known, the rank would be irrelevant. If the captain has good ideas, the PCs would listen to him, otherwise they'd ignore him. Then again, most players I've known would consider any adherence to rank contrary to the spirit of the game (PCs with military skills, military training, but no effective command structure).

[Grimace]

I'd say it would depend on how the group of soldiers adhere to the military doctrine and ideals, even with the breakdown of overall command. So I'd think a Captain would remain a Captain and be in charge if the group followed what they were trained to follow. If the group went more "independent", then it could default to anything. Time in service for command, regardless of rank. Ability to effectively command, regardless of time in service or rank...whatever the group decided. It wouldn't necessarily be the "military way".

Let me give you a case in point (not exactly like an AF Captain in an army outfit, but similar). During the battle of Rourke's Drift, the British force at the crossing found themselves with two officers of the same rank. One was a combat officer, the other an engineer. They knew they were going to get hit and hit hard by the Zulus, but they followed what they were taught and trained to follow, and the engineer had more time in rank, so he ended up with overall command. So even though they knew they were going to be in the middle of a very tough combat situation, they went by who got their commision first and that's what they stuck with, even though it put an engineer in charge of combat troops in a combat situation.

So it would really depend on the people in the group and how they viewed sticking with what they know and were trained.

[Ramjam]

Funny you should mention Rorke's Drift.

Even though it's suggested that the men there followed the orders of a officers from the Royal Engineers, it was in fact a Acting Assistant Commissary in the Commissariat and Transport Department who was later credited, rather than the relatively inexperienced Chard or Bromhead, for initiating the defence at Rorke's Drift.

Again the Commissary had 30 years experience in the army, 13 of them in the infantry.

[jester]

I would think that with the decimation of units original numbers, the officer corps would have suffered greatly as well.

So all of the officers from the AF and Navy who are very heavy with officers would find themselves doing important tasks behind the lines as similiar as their old jobs or skills like degree and training would allow.

Further, I could see alot of them being placed in the assorted new admin type positions since alot of an officers work is adminstrative and training. Remember logistics would be a new headache in the T2K world. As well as the coordination of foot mobile troops, unit farms and gardens, Cutting material for ethanol and the production, storage, transportation and distribution of it. Animal management.

And then the ratio in the other ranks I can see being a smaller ratio of enlisted to officers in the Army and Marines to give more jobs to more officers.

I would also think they would give the non combat arms officers a shake and back course of say a month or so of training, giving them the basics like land navigation, tactics, call for fire and such.

And I would also suggest giving them an aprentive program where they work under the direct control of a seasoned officer and act as an observer watching the seasoned officer operate, then the next phase they are in control of a platoon with their seasoned officer mentor observing them and guiding them so they do not screw up.

After about 90 days of total training, 30 for classroom and what amounts to a field infantry leaders training course similiar to an OCS class, they are sent as observers for another 30 days, then after that they are put in charge and observed for 30 days. And if they pass then they are transfered somewhere else to take command of troops at a platoon level. Those who wash out are either rececycled, or they are sent somewhere where they can not do to much damage.

I can see other new fields:

Battlefeild reclamation; salavaging and repairing equipmement from the battledield.

Artillery: leadership and knowledge with the FO, logistical, meteorology and commanding a gun or working in the fire control center.

Mech, commanding a mechanized unit.

Logistics

Repair

Fuel Peroleum or Fuel Methanol production

So there are alot of positions that surplus officers can be sent to do.