29th Infantry Division

[James Langham]

As there is nothing in canon on the 29th Infantry Division, I decided to send it to Korea (there was a suggestion I believe by Chico that it was deployed to the Horn of Africa but this would have caused problems with my plans for the 173rd Airborne).

Here is my suggestion for how it was deployed.

[dragoon500ly]

Good work! Always look forward to your articles.

But I got to flame you on this one James, US Army Korea used the M-60A3 tank during the 1980s, they were one of the last units to convert over to the IPM-1 right around 1989-90 time frame.

When I was serving my last hitch as an instructor at Ft Knox, there was a
M-60A3 company (the only one on base) that was training National Guardsmen and Korean-bound tankers.

Most active duty M-60A1s had been converted/replaced to the A3 configuation (in Germany at least) right around 1982-83. A lot of the tank commanders were less than impressed with the IPM-1 TC position, the powered coupla has a major PITA and the position of the TCs sight came in for a lot of criticism.

On the M-60A3, there is a long tube extension that brings the gunner's night sight picture to roughly knee level, the TC could angle his eyepiece up and be able to keep his head out of the hatch to keep an eye on things and then slightly back and down to see what his gunner was looking at. On the Abrams you had to drop down completely and look through your extension sight...you had the choice of leaving the hatch open and unoccupied or of closing the hatch, and then reopening the hatch with every movement. Not a problem in peacetime, but a great way to encourage an infantryman with a satchel charge during war.

[James Langham]

Good work! Always look forward to your articles.

But I got to flame you on this one James, US Army Korea used the M-60A3 tank during the 1980s, they were one of the last units to convert over to the IPM-1 right around 1989-90 time frame.

When I was serving my last hitch as an instructor at Ft Knox, there was a
M-60A3 company (the only one on base) that was training National Guardsmen and Korean-bound tankers.

Most active duty M-60A1s had been converted/replaced to the A3 configuation (in Germany at least) right around 1982-83. A lot of the tank commanders were less than impressed with the IPM-1 TC position, the powered coupla has a major PITA and the position of the TCs sight came in for a lot of criticism.

On the M-60A3, there is a long tube extension that brings the gunner's night sight picture to roughly knee level, the TC could angle his eyepiece up and be able to keep his head out of the hatch to keep an eye on things and then slightly back and down to see what his gunner was looking at. On the Abrams you had to drop down completely and look through your extension sight...you had the choice of leaving the hatch open and unoccupied or of closing the hatch, and then reopening the hatch with every movement. Not a problem in peacetime, but a great way to encourage an infantryman with a satchel charge during war.

So much for text books! Ok will find a way to fix - I think I can see a fairly obvious one in that it is easier to fly the troops and use the M48s there than ship the tanks from the States.

(and there was me thinking the use of the 29th in Korea instead of their planned area would get me criticized...)

Still I would rather friends here spot the faults than keep them in.

[kota1342000]

I had wondered if anyone else was using the 29th ID too. My version is that the 29th was formed up from angry displaced Americans that had either evacuated ahead of advancing Soviet and Mexican forces or escaped from the occupied areas south of I-40 in the CONUS. I placed them with 110th Corps, and had them retaking Fort Sill, Oklahoma as one of their last major actions.

For my additional units, I tried to keep things short and sweet as the original US and Soviet Combat Vehicle Handbooks did;

"29th Infantry Division (Mech), Ft Sill Ok, 2600 troops, 10 Stingray II, 6 M-60-2000, 8 M4A4E8 Sherman
The 29th was activated by popular demand as the volunteers coming out of the occupied territories and from behind the friendly lines swelled. They were armed up with a recently acquired stock of arms, equipment and vehicles that had just been recaptured from the Mexican Army. They went fully active not long after the victory of the 256th, and moved forward in their wake, retaking Ft Sill and keeping the pressure on the Mexicans. They also faced off with forward elements of Division Cuba of the Soviet Army, and crushed a leading motor rifle battalion in a surprise night action."

(The 256th is a Mechanized Infantry Brigade formed up around wounded troops returning to duty and using the stay behind personnel and colors of a Louisiana National Guard Bde that had originally been detailed to the 5th Infantry Division)

[James Langham]

I had wondered if anyone else was using the 29th ID too. My version is that the 29th was formed up from angry displaced Americans that had either evacuated ahead of advancing Soviet and Mexican forces or escaped from the occupied areas south of I-40 in the CONUS. I placed them with 110th Corps, and had them retaking Fort Sill, Oklahoma as one of their last major actions.

For my additional units, I tried to keep things short and sweet as the original US and Soviet Combat Vehicle Handbooks did;

"29th Infantry Division (Mech), Ft Sill Ok, 2600 troops, 10 Stingray II, 6 M-60-2000, 8 M4A4E8 Sherman
The 29th was activated by popular demand as the volunteers coming out of the occupied territories and from behind the friendly lines swelled. They were armed up with a recently acquired stock of arms, equipment and vehicles that had just been recaptured from the Mexican Army. They went fully active not long after the victory of the 256th, and moved forward in their wake, retaking Ft Sill and keeping the pressure on the Mexicans. They also faced off with forward elements of Division Cuba of the Soviet Army, and crushed a leading motor rifle battalion in a surprise night action."

(The 256th is a Mechanized Infantry Brigade formed up around wounded troops returning to duty and using the stay behind personnel and colors of a Louisiana National Guard Bde that had originally been detailed to the 5th Infantry Division)

Doesn't even need to contradict mine as that sounds like the 29th reforming in the US after being destroyed.

[kota1342000]

Good point! Maybe I dont put enough thought into connections between all of the good stuff that can always be found here

[dragoon500ly]

Believe me James, tracking down TO&Es and when a certain piece of equipment reached the troops is enough to drive one gray-headed (or watching reruns of Charmed!).

My own take on the 29th was it going to the Persian Gulf and getting creamed in the fighting following Operation Pegasus II, it was then pulling rear area security and LOC security duties.

[James1978]

The 29th was formed as a Light division when it was reformed in the 1980s and as of 1989, it was the only Light division on the National Guard. So shouldn't any armor battalion have been equipped with the M8/LAV75/whatever Or is the M48/M60 a plus up to the division to give it some more firepower/staying power

I'm enjoying your work, so please keep them coming.

[Legbreaker]

Perhaps the newer vehicles were allocated to the "professional" military units first and only the older vehicles were available

[James1978]

Perhaps the newer vehicles were allocated to the "professional" military units first and only the older vehicles were available

That's an explanation I can easily buy.

I guess my issue/question comes from the fact as a Light division, why did it have an M60 battalion in the first place

[HorseSoldier]

The division isn't really missing from the T2K order of battle. It's component units are just under different flags, so adding it to the order of battle is double-dipping units in the 26th and 46th IDs in the T2K order of battle.

Unless the colors for 29th are posited as being attached to a unit mobilized after the war begins, as was suggested up thread, then it seems to me that it can only exist at the expense of 26th or 46th IDs in the order of battle, and would most likely just take their place in Korea or California. Excess brigades from whichever of those units gets the axe could be posited as filling in for the 6th and 10th ID(L) round out brigades and the brigade for the Iceland Defense Force, all of which are also missing from the order of battle (or, more precisely, slated in other units as well -- 42nd and 43rd ID).

[dragoon500ly]

The 29th was formed as a Light division when it was reformed in the 1980s and as of 1989, it was the only Light division on the National Guard. So shouldn't any armor battalion have been equipped with the M8/LAV75/whatever Or is the M48/M60 a plus up to the division to give it some more firepower/staying power

I'm enjoying your work, so please keep them coming.

To be accurate a Light Infantry Division in the '80s would not have any armor assigned at all. Their only antitank systems would be the Dragons of the line companies, the Hummer/TOWs of the nine Combat Support Companies and the attack helicopters in their air cav sqn and attack helicopter battalion.

The concept of a LID at the time, was to be very mobile in a strategic sense, everything it had could be airlifted via C-5/C-141. The proud boost was on the ground anywhere in the world in 72 hours. And to be fair, they could it.

It was intended for the LID to be used only in circumstances when a heavy division could not be employed, i.e. urban/jungle/mountain warfare. They would be reinforced, if necessary, by various NG infantry divisions. And initial plans were to form only 2 and perhaps 3 LIDs in addition to the 82nd/101st or 5 lights out of 17 divisions.

So why did the AUS form the 6th, 7th, 10th and 25th LIDs, not to mention the 9th Motorized Congress can be thanked for that. It was cheaper to field a light fighter than it was to field heavy troops. They didn't require the support structure as well. A real cheap way to field large numbers of soldiers and free up money for the various social programs......

This ignored the fact that LIDs, while strategically far more mobile than the heavies, have the tactical mobility of a World War One doughboy, you can only march so far and so fast on foot. And in every single exercise in which the lights went up against heavies in which the lights did not have a terrain advantage....the lights had their arses handed to them. And even some of the exercises where the lights had the terrain advantage, it was umpire decisions that gave them the victory (COMEON! A Dragon will not knock out a M-1 at 2,500 meters!!!!).

It was at this point that the great LAV-75/RDF Light Tank/M-8 AGS started. The intent was to introduce a good light tank/mobile gun system and equip each LID with 1-2 battalions to give them more firepower. With the end of these programs, that gave the push to go Stryker. And so the Light Fighter experiment ended.

[HorseSoldier]

And, to be fair, in the 80s you had a lot of people prepping to refight Vietnam in Central America on the one hand, and the Reagan administration pushing for specific end state goals in the force structure. Back in those days, the targets were X number of divisions and Y number of ships in the navy, etc.

[James Langham]

Revised version

Rewritten version incorporating a lot of Kota's history. As ever comments welcome.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

This thread has given me another couple of quotes