Project Artillery

[ArmySGT.]

Very well done, and perfectly in line with my own way of thinking; I always thought that the equipment of a party, not just that of a MP Team, should be consistent with the place of origin / operations of the party, unless, that is, this same equipment is not particularly widespread or international.

Yes, I to think that the equipment the Morrow Project / Atlantis Project chooses to use should match that in use in the region or nation. The Project is there to help the people and you dont want to be attacked or running away from you because of your strange vehicle and equipment. Therefore the equipment in use in Canada or Mexico differs from that within the Continental United States.

Speaking of old aircraft, it seems only natural that, using as setting the UK, we are looking at the classic Spit - or the good ol' Hurricane, for that matter - because I believe there are still many around those parts, in museums or in private hands.
When I mentioned the classic warbirds made in the USA, it is because most of the campaigns MP I wrote / played are set in the States (by the way, I'm Italian) where it is not uncommon to find even today vintage equipment, vehicles and weapons and even where there are immense cemeteries where it would be possible to draw everything and more (for the series: here we don't throw anything away).
Same would apply if there was a Morrow Project beyond the Iron Curtain, because the Russians and their allies and satellites have never thrown anything away, they mostly recycled and resold / distributed their old equipment all around the world, so that would not surprise me at all to find an eastern equivalent of the MP loaded for bear with - just as an example - the Lavochkin-5 or the ubiquitous Il-2 Sturmovik, always to stay in the aircraft field.

I think a Morrow Air Force is vital to the Project and the success of the Project. So far the C-130 Hercules, the CH-47 Chinook, the OH-6 Cayuse, and the Autogyro. The stats for the first three are in Prime Base.

I look forward to a Morrow Air Force thread. I think a small number of F-20 Tigersharks ought to be included.

However, the use of outdated vehicles and weapons as part of a MP's campaign, as far as I'm concerned, is limited to only two cases: the project teams who recur to salvage and refurbishing of relics in place of their own unusable/destroyed equipment or to replenish the reserves in case of success of the project and widening of the fleet / arsenal, or as standard equipment (more or less) of the various political entities that the team sees / faces ergo of the many agencies against which the Project fight for its own continued success.

The production of military vehicles and weapon systems is closely monitored and tightly controlled. The V-150 isnt in US arsenals and production of parts can only be done because US allies like the Philippines and Saudi Arabia use them. However, that is not the case with items classed as obsolete. The M60 tank is classed as obsolete yet, the M68 105mm cannon is still know to be effective against modern MBTs. The 105mm Howitzer on the M7B1 is only a slightly older and less sophisticated cousin of the M102. The M2 cannon can fire the same 105mm as the M102. The use of older obsolete equipment works for the Morrow Project because they have the luxury of time to refit them, the resources to do so, and buying them for nearly nothing.

It seems only logical to me that a job like the recovery, restoration and conservation is more useful to those who remained in the real world after the war, while the MP teams slept in their cryogenic sleep, unless you feel like assuming that a particular team was outfitted for precise will of the Project or for other reasons, with outdated equipment, although I can't see a purpose in a similar decision right now.

Cost and the necessity of keeping the Project a secret would be two factors. The Morrow Project could probably receive some ex-US Army M60A3 tanks to be decommissioned or melted down. The government might not even look after the first is melted down. Now opening up the production line and manufacturing brand new Cadillac Gage Stingray light tanks when the sole user (Thailand) hasnt ordered any Well someone is going to ask questions. Same goes for new M109A4 or A6 self-propelled artillery systems.

All this talk brings us back to the question: unless you want to take as a point of view, the principle by which the equipment assigned to MP Teams is obsolete simply because the events of the original game took place around the the late 80s of last century, it goes without saying that looking around for the best that exists at the time to equip their teams' boltholes is only natural.
After all, the equipment already included in the manual TM 1-1 was the best available in the years when it was written; just as an example look at the missiles assigned to the MARS teams: in the '80s were the non-plus ultra of military technology.

I, myself play with the 1989 war date. This way it is easier for me to stat the weapons , computers, cars, and other equipment. Secondly, my materials and sources for the Soviet and Warsaw Pact equipment along with new and recently disclosed things helps me write realistic scenarios for Soviet bad guys.

So, in my humble opinion, unless you want to maintain the principle that the teams, once hibernated, were no longer re-equipped, effectively sealing them in their tombs of concrete and steel (which among other things, I can't remember if it's written anywhere in the manual), I think it's only natural that, at the awakening of the teams you can find ... surprises in the form of weapons, vehicles and equipment that are state of the art today, but didn't exist when the team was put to sleep.

I dont do that to the Teams, unless I write into the mission brief that the Team was awakened at a Morrow Facility, and retrained on new updated equipment. So in this way a Team has a LAV like the US Marine Corps except for a fusion power plant and knows how to properly operate it.

After all, even the ubiquitous V-series armored cars so loved and used by the MP, today are ridiculous at best but in the '80s were perfect for the purpose and they were state-of-the-art light armor at the time.
So it's no surprise to me (and in fact I have done so more than once) to find that in the bolthole our heroes find instead of a V-150 a Renault VBL or a Lince or Puma armored cars, modern and premium vehicles compared to the old Cadillac-Gage's armored cars that have been discontinued for years now, while still in use in many countries, mainly in the Third World.

I look forward to some of the stats you have done on them. Have you done stats for the Centauro That is very MARS Team to my thinking.

[ArmySGT.]

And I don't think you have to go to Soucy for rubber band tracks:

http://www.rigsourceinc.com/Crawler_Carriers/crawler_carriers.asp

--
Michael B.

Soucy makes a rubber band track for the M113 APC and new for the M3 Half Track as an off shoot of their business making rubber track for Agricultural tractors working in mud or soft ground.

If is am not mistaken they make rubber track for a few other military vehicles.

[ArmySGT.]

It might be amusing and useful to work out what a 'generic Project leaflet' says. I suspect at least one shell would be dismantled by the Team to provide paper for other (hygiene-related) purposes.

Presumably if it's being fired, the 'target' is an area that is occupied by an unfriendly force, but contains literate people who might be influenced by a leaflet. The leafles have to be generic enough to use in almost any situation, and written to use the most basic vocabulary and grammar. Heh, perhaps there are various leaflet rounds in the M8 trailer: "This one is about slavery, this one's about women's rights, this one's about democracy, this one is a reward for helping Morrow Project personnel escape, this one is encouraging defectors, and this one is some kind of warning to leave the area immediately!"

Pondering a generic text:

"The Morrow Project wants to rebuild America. Freedom, peace, justice and liberty are the rights of every American. You should have all these things, but bad people are stopping you. You and your families are victims of these bad people. We can help with food, clean water, medicine and housing, and to remove the bad people. Bring this paper to us, and we will treat you well."

As for treads: I don't think the Project had to buy the company ... just a lot of treads, for (apparently) 50 or so M7B2 gun motor carriages. Or just build them in the Cadillac-Gage factories. Ah ha, the companies making treads are mostly in British Columbia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_Sherman_tanks#Civilian_variants

Here's the Morpac page on crawler equipment:

http://www.morpac.com/crawlers.shtml

Look at the treads and suspension. Notice in fact their description of track inventory!

--
Michael B.

I suspect leaflets most would be generic warnings about radioactive fallout and chemical weapons. To be dropped on refugees who might be in the path of the stuff. Others might be warnings to hostile forces who may have turned against legitimate to surrender their arms.

The tracks production makes sense alot of former tanks have been converted to logging equipment. The cable arrays that are the draglines for hauling logs are usually Shermans.

[Gelrir]

I'm not sure how useful a generic warning against fallout would be, five years after an atomic war. "You should leave immediately, and head in a safe direction, away from the radiation."

The actual text might have assumptions or make promises that don't work in 2139. "Hmm, it says here sir that we're working closely with the Federal government. How does that work"

Hmm:

"You are acting in an unlawful manner. Lay down your weapons immediately or face attack. This is your final warning."

Maybe peek at some Chiau Hồi leaflets for inspiration, hmm. A generic 'you should give up' leaflet would take some thought. Heh, some of the Viet Cong leaflets aimed at Americans went more or less like: "Come to us, and you will get $10,000 and this girl", along with a pinup picture of a woman.

Another reason, perhaps, for the PsyOps teams to have a lot of silver and gold coins. Sure, you bought their cooperation, but sometimes it's better than fighting them.

--
Michael B.

[ArmySGT.]

I'm not sure how useful a generic warning against fallout would be, five years after an atomic war. "You should leave immediately, and head in a safe direction, away from the radiation."

The actual text might have assumptions or make promises that don't work in 2139. "Hmm, it says here sir that we're working closely with the Federal government. How does that work"

Hmm:

"You are acting in an unlawful manner. Lay down your weapons immediately or face attack. This is your final warning."

Maybe peek at some Chiau Hồi leaflets for inspiration, hmm. A generic 'you should give up' leaflet would take some thought. Heh, some of the Viet Cong leaflets aimed at Americans went more or less like: "Come to us, and you will get $10,000 and this girl", along with a pinup picture of a woman.

Another reason, perhaps, for the PsyOps teams to have a lot of silver and gold coins. Sure, you bought their cooperation, but sometimes it's better than fighting them.

--
Michael B.

Most of the time the correct direction is South and West. Counter the prevailing winds. Dropped in front of a refugee column it would read "Warning, approaching a significant fallout contamination zone! Turn back or apply safeguards." Then red or yellow smoke shells would be dropped on the known edge of the contamination zone closest to the refugee column.

Best case scenario an MP Chem OPs team using an M93 Fox vehicle or V-150 equivalent has mapped that terrain.

[ArmySGT.]

I'm not sure how useful a generic warning against fallout would be, five years after an atomic war. "You should leave immediately, and head in a safe direction, away from the radiation."

The actual text might have assumptions or make promises that don't work in 2139. "Hmm, it says here sir that we're working closely with the Federal government. How does that work"

Hmm:

"You are acting in an unlawful manner. Lay down your weapons immediately or face attack. This is your final warning."

Maybe peek at some Chiau Hồi leaflets for inspiration, hmm. A generic 'you should give up' leaflet would take some thought. Heh, some of the Viet Cong leaflets aimed at Americans went more or less like: "Come to us, and you will get $10,000 and this girl", along with a pinup picture of a woman.

Another reason, perhaps, for the PsyOps teams to have a lot of silver and gold coins. Sure, you bought their cooperation, but sometimes it's better than fighting them.

--
Michael B.

I would expect that leaflets meant to convince rogue police, citizens, or military to surrender or cease their actions in the 3-5 year time the Project was supposed to operate would be useless after 150 years.

[Gelrir]

I would expect that leaflets meant to convince rogue police, citizens, or military to surrender or cease their actions in the 3-5 year time the Project was supposed to operate would be useless after 150 years.

Oh, I agree, but if those are the leaflets the team has ...

It's always interesting to see players try to stuff the square holes in the dam with round pegs!

--
Michael B.

[Gelrir]

Some interesting links on 'carrier' shells (the ones that disperse leaflets):

http://ww2propaganda.eu/spread5.htm

http://www.psywar.org/105mm.php

So apparently a 105mm shell could hold 500 leaflets of the 4.5" x 7" size. It also seems easy to load "when needed" rather than requiring the leaflets to be pre-loaded. So: the team gets X number of empty carrier shells, and Y number of stacks of various leaflets.

--
Michael B

[kato13]

I'm embarrassed to say that I never once considered smoke, CS/CN/BZ, or pamphlets when considering the acceptable uses for my pretty rare (36 total) project howitzers.

Thanks for those ideas. Up to this point I had only considered using HE to dislodge a stubborn military equipped enemy, to assist in taking an island or such, or crossing a river in force.

On a related note, this forum is not like other forums where posting ideas to old posts is frowned upon. To our new users, if you want to comment on an older thread feel free. New information is always welcome.

[ArmySGT.]

I'm embarrassed to say that I never once considered smoke, CS/CN/BZ, or pamphlets when considering the acceptable uses for my pretty rare (36 total) project howitzers.

Thanks for those ideas. Up to this point I had only considered using HE to dislodge a stubborn military equipped enemy, to assist in taking an island or such, or crossing a river in force.

On a related note, this forum is not like other forums where posting ideas to old posts is frowned upon. To our new users, if you want to comment on an older thread feel free. New information is always welcome.

Personally, I am going with HEP over HE or HERA.

The HEP rounds have an anti armor effect without stating it loudly, however the HEP round also makes for an excellent demolition round.

So in recovery ops, the HEP round can be used to demolish structures dangerous to be around or impairing recovery such as damaged bridges or large sections of collapsed buildings.

[Project_Sardonicus]

I always looked at the project buying very little truly heavy military hardware.

It's conspicuos, raises all the wrong attention, not to mention it's big, bulky and hard to conceal,

More likely the project would set up specialised teams near, or possibly staffing military bases with the aim of stealing what they need when the time is right,

So they would use political influence to encourage the creation of depots in wilderness areas, poorly staffed, safe from the bombs and ready to be taken over.

Though I suspect they would be more interested in add on sensors and control fins for ordinary mortor rounds. Something like the Copperhead and Merlin systems that would take advantage of projects technological systems. To squeeze more value from smaller 81mm rounds or occasonal artillery rounds

[Gelrir]

Or ... near National Guard posts. For my 'classic era' campaign, I worked up the equipment near Santa Rosa, California as an example:

579th Engineer Battalion

* 579th Headquarters Support Company (Santa Rosa): about 30 M998 Humvees, couple dozen big trucks (including some M809 five-ton trucks), dozen or so cranes and other construction stuff, M728 CEV on display

* 579th Forward Support Company (Santa Rosa): shelter, food, utilities, and a couple dozen trucks

* 132nd Engineer Company (Mount Shasta and Eureka): multi-role bridge building; lots of trucks, construction vehicles, a couple dozen M998 Humvees or M151 Mutts

* 120th Engineer Detachment (Lakeport, on Clear Lake): concrete finishing; two big flatbed trailer trucks, truck with lowbed trailer for carrying equipment, one other truck, plus a couple of M998 Humvees or M151 "mutts"

On October 17, 1989, the 579th mobilized in response to the Loma Prieta Earthquake. The first mission was the construction of a parking lot for the Bay Bridge commuter ferry and the second was to assist in debris clearing and removal in the Santa Cruz area. They had just returned from those tasks and had not entirely demobilized when World War III took place.

Of course, nothing says all this stuff will be sitting around undisturbed 5 years after an Atomic War (let alone 150 years).

There's also the Sierra Army Depot, which has held hundreds or thousands of "the previous generation" of tanks in storage. M60s before the M1 came around, and now has the older M1 tanks.

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/army-to-congress-thanks-but-no-tanks/

Of course, it's on the target list, but it's a huge, sprawling base.

--
Michael B.

[kato13]

In the T2k forum there recently was a post on the NATO rapid reaction force. They used a 105mm Pack howitzer until 1975.

OTO Melara Mod 56

The facts that they were retired at a perfect time for the project, and that they can be broken into 12 ~125kg parts makes them really promising as an option for my project.

The project just needs to buy them as scrap metal, perhaps manufacturing only the barrel (as I expect it would be tapped and replacements would be desired post oops).

I also had my project buy retired manufacturing equipment (as those jobs moved overseas) as scrap metal so that part of the cover story would match up nicely.

[ArmySGT.]

I always looked at the project buying very little truly heavy military hardware.

It's conspicuos, raises all the wrong attention, not to mention it's big, bulky and hard to conceal,

More likely the project would set up specialised teams near, or possibly staffing military bases with the aim of stealing what they need when the time is right,

So they would use political influence to encourage the creation of depots in wilderness areas, poorly staffed, safe from the bombs and ready to be taken over.

Though I suspect they would be more interested in add on sensors and control fins for ordinary mortor rounds. Something like the Copperhead and Merlin systems that would take advantage of projects technological systems. To squeeze more value from smaller 81mm rounds or occasonal artillery rounds

Completely disagree.

Building a colossal project to rebuild the Nation, and restart the United States would really lose credibility for the project and the restored government if looting government facilities and military assets are necessary.

There is quite a lot of military hard ware directly fielded by the Morrow Project up to C-130 Hercules and CH-47 Chinook aircraft.

The MARS One while not conventional military isn't going to pass unnoticed.

I, admit I chucked that one out and the HAAM suit too.

Military equipment is a known quantity. It has been tested, people are trained to use it, and spare parts are found in quantity.

[ArmySGT.]

In the T2k forum there recently was a post on the NATO rapid reaction force. They used a 105mm Pack howitzer until 1975.

OTO Melara Mod 56

The facts that they were retired at a perfect time for the project, and that they can be broken into 12 ~125kg parts makes them really promising as an option for my project.

The project just needs to buy them as scrap metal, perhaps manufacturing only the barrel (as I expect it would be tapped and replacements would be desired post oops).

I also had my project buy retired manufacturing equipment (as those jobs moved overseas) as scrap metal so that part of the cover story would match up nicely.

I like it. Probably for the MARS teams that have the Rocky Mtns, Sierra Nevada Mtns, and Cascade Mtns.

One civilian application of howitzers is avalanche control using HE to shake snow loose when you want it to fall.