KFS Refit

[gamerguy]

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few hundred sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines

Good questions. I think the "background" tech level would be mid 19th C. Think of the steam engines which travelled around providing the mechanical muscle in the mid 19th to early 20th C. Smaller towns could have a steam driven power house providing electricity to the local few along with a basic water supply, for example.

As to trade I think that is based on law levels more than tech. As I see it "governments like KFS, Krell, Maxwell, etc. would allow freer trade within their borders. Transport using steam trains or steam road vehicles would be able to travel over areas. Slow though. Gypsy truckers Steel road wheels, steam power plants and travel in convoys like the pioneers settling the west or convoys plying the north atlantic in WWI/II or the caravans of the silk road. Strength, and safety, in numbers with hired guns or better still military muscle as members of the gypsy tribe(s) themselves.

IIRC there are a number of city states based around universities. Also based around viable logical resource extraction and purification locations. Think the road warrior's gasoline clan. No pipelines for transport so tanker trucks, or lake freighters, gypsy sailors.

I think the small isolated communities could only exist with a resource to provide income for protection or in some kind of mutual support organization, a proto state perhaps They would have to be pretty isolated with not much around them so few people would be willing to spend the resources to get to them. This assumes bands of roving thugs with no resources except extraction of resources from those they raid.

Then do those thugs provide a reason for the communities to band together into prototype mini states providing mutual self defense to form, or do the thugs themselves become the organ of the state and control these isolated communities building themselves into the next Krell, KFS, etc. To me the first groups would be most likely to form something akin to democratic or feudal government over time. The later feudal or dictatorships.

Makes you think about how the larger groups started and allowed or were forced into some form of government.

[RandyT0001]

Gamerguy, going beyond mid-19th century tech runs into a significant 'brick wall' of advancement. Want to know what it is Natural rubber. Natural rubber only comes from a large tropical tree which the great powers of the mid 19th century - British, French, German, Japanese, and American set up plantations to meet supply demands for growing and development nations. Any rubber like object that did not include natural rubber generally did not last for long, breaking down by use or deterioration within a year or less of time. No rubber hoses, no tires, etc. for greater advancement.

If you have significant states in North America - Maxwell's Militia, the confederacy of the Rich Five states (I reject the KFS module because the author based it on a unrealistic, fascist society from a book he had read), Texas Republic, and Frozen Chosen you have trade, between them and with overseas nations that have rebuilt or established themselves after 150 years. To me the MP teams do not wake up in uncivilized lands but in an unknown and unfamiliar civilization of the post war world reality.

[ArmySGT.]

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

The Morrow Project isn't a manufacturer before the WAR. That is why they need significant stockpile of goods for the 3-5 year plan.

Bruce persuaded a group of industrialists to pool the money and resources to make the Morrow Project. Massive multinational corporations that had the means to divert or "lose" resources with little notice.

Krell is a Warlord. A version of Genghis Khan. His "Empire" is wherever his people happen to be.

The Kentucky Free States (aka The Rich Five) IS some of the former industrialists from the council of Tomorrow. They had the cryosleep technology and other systems, and the probably War date (19 November 1989) per 3rd edition. The "Two Thousand" is two thousand families with nothing more defining how large those families were. They awoke 10 years after the War and through force assumed control of the territory surrounding their hidden fortress/bunker/enclave. That may possibly be more than one (one for each family) and more dividing the Two Thousand up around different industries. The R5 like the TMP buried and preserved their merchant empire awaiting a day when they can run things (government) the way the benefits themselves.

Yes, the R5 are running the University at Bowling Green, Ky and have for more than 100 years. Loyal KFS citizens attend and very select few career paths.

The KFS is wholesale dismantling and salvaging anything pre-War in their area and taking this to Louisville, KY. That is the heart of their manufacturing empire with thousands of people doing thousands of things.

The KFS is a mean, dangerous, fascist State and probably the only one with the ability to affect things beyond their borders.

The KFS is XYZ corp, GHJ, YJK, ADE, VBN, and more.

Think of say, General Dynamics, hid 1% of its personnel and build capability per year for 20 years. Now and Kraft foods, Dow chemical, Monsanto, Shell Oil, IBM, and others.

KFS is THE big boogey man. Krell is really a minor distraction. A threat to keep the players moving and make for some drama. The KFS is a threat to the Project and will not be persuaded to go back to the "Good Ole Days" of the American Republic.

[ArmySGT.]

Please note I was a player not a PM and had/have nothing but the original 1979 pre publication loose leaf binder manual. I made it a point not to ruin the fun of discovery.

Ah. Well then.

You are missing a lot of information. 3rd editions 1983 publication; also the modules "Bullets & Bluegrass" and "Fall Back" that host most of the game canon material for the Kentucky Free States.

[.45cultist]

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few thousands of sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines

For most survivors about 1850's-60's. But Rich Five plus survivors, and salvage and fusion produced petroleum equals the resources to copy or make a tank more simple than a monkey M! or an M60A3. The Rich 5 might have been defense contractors who made the snake eater cryo tubes and had other extensive defense industries that could replace Watervliet Arsenal. The M68 is a late 1950's design The R% should have reference books and engineers who can mutter this in their sleep( I knew one from Lake City, cancer took him early this year).

[ArmySGT.]

For most survivors about 1850's-60's. But Rich Five plus survivors, and salvage and fusion produced petroleum equals the resources to copy or make a tank more simple than a monkey M! or an M60A3. The Rich 5 might have been defense contractors who made the snake eater cryo tubes and had other extensive defense industries that could replace Watervliet Arsenal. The M68 is a late 1950's design The R% should have reference books and engineers who can mutter this in their sleep( I knew one from Lake City, cancer took him early this year).

First. Sorry for your friend. That is no way to go.

The only thing that make Watervliet Arsenal special is the permission to make guns of those calibers. The power hammers, electric arc forges, mandrels, and lathes large enough to do that job exist in other heavy industry. Building locomotives, for example.

[ArmySGT.]

I did a little work on a KFS helicopter unit

Why not an H-13 A 1945 design used throughout the Korean War.

H-13

I'm sure that the KFS military would REALLY like a versatile twin engine transport, like a DHC-4 Caribou or even a DC-3 Dakota - but these are not cheap...

I was thinking either the DC-3 Dakota or the PBY Catalina. The Dakota is able to land and a rough landing strip and the PBY on water or prepared strip. Either is a good work horse for long scouting missions.

[Matt W]

Gamerguy, going beyond mid-19th century tech runs into a significant 'brick wall' of advancement. Want to know what it is Natural rubber. Natural rubber only comes from a large tropical tree which the great powers of the mid 19th century - British, French, German, Japanese, and American set up plantations to meet supply demands for growing and development nations. Any rubber like object that did not include natural rubber generally did not last for long, breaking down by use or deterioration within a year or less of time. No rubber hoses, no tires, etc. for greater advancement.

True, but artificial rubber was manufactured on an industrial scale in about 1910 (Say...TL D to TLC. This is the Tech Level of the New Confederacy) You can also get rubber from several different plants. This includes dandelions, "prickly lettuce", and guayule (which grows in Texas). Maybe the New Confederacy plantations grow rubber That may be more plausible than cotton

The KFS would use the technique developed by Lebedev in the 1930's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Lebedev_(chemist))

Ethanol to Rubber! That should be useful in Kentucky

If you have significant states in North America - Maxwell's Militia, the confederacy of the Rich Five states (I reject the KFS module because the author based it on a unrealistic, fascist society from a book he had read), Texas Republic, and Frozen Chosen you have trade, between them and with overseas nations that have rebuilt or established themselves after 150 years. To me the MP teams do not wake up in uncivilized lands but in an unknown and unfamiliar civilization of the post war world reality.

I agree, and this explains the existence of nomadic groups like Gypsy Truckers, Bikers and Wanderers (possibly others). But don't knock the "defend a village from bandits". That sort of storyline is a useful beginning to a campaign

[ArmySGT.]

I agree and this explains the existence of Gypsy Truckers, Bikers and Wanderers (possibly others). But the "defend a village from bandits" storyline is a useful beginning to a campaign

Liberation at Riverton!

Anyone, anyone

[.45cultist]

First. Sorry for your friend. That is no way to go.

The only thing that make Watervliet Arsenal special is the permission to make guns of those calibers. The power hammers, electric arc forges, mandrels, and lathes large enough to do that job exist in other heavy industry. Building locomotives, for example.

If companies can work D2 tool steel and other durable metals, they can work ordnance steel.

[dragoon500ly]

Why not an H-13 A 1945 design used throughout the Korean War.

H-13



I was thinking either the DC-3 Dakota or the PBY Catalina. The Dakota is able to land and a rough landing strip and the PBY on water or prepared strip. Either is a good work horse for long scouting missions.

Problem with a Catalina would be its size, it's 63ft 10in (19.46m) in length and has a wingspan of 104ft (31.70m), it would be restricted to large lakes and major rivers for landings, or to long runways, it's an interesting idea, but a better choice might be the Grumman G-21 Goose, designed as a mid sized transport carrying 8 passengers or about 2.5 tons of cargo. Another choice might be the Otter or Beaver fitted with floats.

[mmartin798]

One of Gamerguy's problem is the sourcing of materials that are not abundant in the US that are currently imported from South Africa or parts of Asia. Primarily chromium used to improve the corrosive properties of steel for weapons. So let me ask something for my personal clarity, as I am not a metallurgist.

Other than requiring more frequent cleaning and replacement, is there a problem using high carbon steel without the addition of chromium for firearms and cannons My assumption thus far has been it is not a problem and that KFS trade rifles used a steel with lower carbon content to make the wear characteristics such that they wear out quickly. Is that basically it or am I missing something critical

[gamerguy]

Machine gun barrels are chrome plated since WWII in order to reduce wear and tear. A very thin layer of chrome, when backed up by hardened steel, will give a very long life.

You have my concerns correct about rare or hard to procure elements. However, as I said I am only familiar with Pre 1st edition so do not know the full background of the KFS. To make canon work the rich 5 would, and I suppose could, stash vast amounts of strategic materials for future use. I still believe scavenging post war would only be viable for the first 5 to 20 years before anything worth it would be gone or unuseable.

I just see the massive layers of technology and manufacturing expertise needed to be beyond a single company or group of companies. And all these people need food, electricity, water supplies, toasters, ovens, washers and driers, etc.. Finally the R5's holdings would have to totally private, no publically traded companies or else shareholders, and the Feds would be all over them for stashing all those hidden assets. Seriously they would need something on the order a trillion dollars or more in family wealth between them. I doubt there are five families anywhere in the world with that much wealth. If Bill Gates with 100 Billion is the top dog (last I heard) his input might get him on the second team to try out the cryo tubes.

Another thought I had was after this has been going for a generation or two greed will rule everything. What is to keep one family from eventually getting rid of the "competition" Why share this. I think by 150 years plus it would degenerate to the rich one (family that is) or a few separate states headed by the latest members of the families. Food for scenarios at least.

Rubber was discussed in past threads. Very interesting, you should dig them up. I was thinking a surviving agricultural university could make that one long term project. Maybe a local TMP team could do a run into a "bad zone" to recover potentially critical info from an ancient facility. Say after 100 years of successfully running a replacement rubber plantation something is causing issues but the problem was being worked on my a known company's research facility....

I only know some metallurgy and the issues with it. In my mind there is also optics (including coatings), electronics, ceramics, petrochemicals, etc. all have potential issues with the likes of supplies of raw materials or very specific technologies or techniques.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Is perhaps the question how much does the KFS actually need

Lets say they need tyres for at most a 1000 military vehicles and a 1000 civilian ones

I'm guessing they're happy for the slaves and peasants to bum around on horse drawn carts with wooden wheels. Then it wouldn't be that improbable for them to either grow enough rubber in hot houses or produce synthetic plastic rubber in sufficient quantities.

They may not be able to make high quality steel, but acceptable firearms have been made from heavier steel for decades. I think the idea of a KFS mini14 weighing a kilo or so more than it's real world competitor and not being capable of full auto to save it's weaker barrel more realistic.

[ArmySGT.]

One of Gamerguy's problem is the sourcing of materials that are not abundant in the US that are currently imported from South Africa or parts of Asia. Primarily chromium used to improve the corrosive properties of steel for weapons. So let me ask something for my personal clarity, as I am not a metallurgist.

Other than requiring more frequent cleaning and replacement, is there a problem using high carbon steel without the addition of chromium for firearms and cannons My assumption thus far has been it is not a problem and that KFS trade rifles used a steel with lower carbon content to make the wear characteristics such that they wear out quickly. Is that basically it or am I missing something critical

The chromium reduces wear tremendously from 5 rounds to 80k rounds between replacements.

Plenty to be found in rail and structural steel harvested from former town and cities.