KFS Refit

[.45cultist]

That would be more than a non-Infantry soldier going through basi training today.

With the bad habits, only motivated troops(Spartan members) would even try.

[ArmySGT.]

With the bad habits, only motivated troops(Spartan members) would even try.

So the 1970's Draft Army, then

[Matt W]

After re-reading "Bullets and Bluegrass", it is my impression that the KFS uses multifuel rotary engines for all its vehicles (including the V300, the Bradley and both M60 and M1 tanks. I assume that these "rotary engines" are based on a version of the Wankel engine

(Bullets & Bluegrass page. 9 "All Army and Air Force vehicles use multifuel rotary engines capable of running on virtually any flammable fuel)

However, the powerplant used by the P47 "Thunderbolt" is unspecified. It may simply be a copy of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800. As far as I know, nobody has built a wankel engine with enough power to replace the R-2800, but it may be possible.

I did a little work on a KFS helicopter unit

https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/2007/07/20/other-aircraft-of-the-kfs-2-heavy-lift-helicopter/

and this is to "rescue" crashed planes

https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/2007/07/21/other-aircraft-of-the-kfs-3-heavy-lift-helicopter/

I'm sure that the KFS military would REALLY like a versatile twin engine transport, like a DHC-4 Caribou or even a DC-3 Dakota - but these are not cheap...

Also, it might be amusing to have the KFS build its own hovercraft. "If the Morrow Project has them...We should have them!"

The KFS probably has the capability to build a sizeable hovercraft like the the API https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...oration_AP1-88

[dragoon500ly]

The early ATGMs would be launched from near but not too close to the operators. They would then fly a path which would intersect a line drawn from the operator's position to the targets. The missile would have a flare in the tail (seen only from behind) and the operator would keep the flare and target lined up until they hit. The operator's control would be a joy stick to guide the missile. This much I know.

Once the missile turns to track the target it would fly in a line which could be traced back to the operator. I believe this was how the Israilis determined where to shoot to surspress the operators and cause the missiles to loose control. They kept some tanks on over watch whose duty it was to engage the missile operators while the rest of the unit advanced.

Once the operator aquires the missile in their sites they become vulnerable to counter battery fire. I think to initially engage the missile there was a wider field of view on the sights which was switched, once the operator had control, to a higher magnification. In order to aquire and track the missiles could not go too fast giving time to react on long range shots, IF the defender is ready. Simple radio controls would be easy to make from discrete components. Based on your timeline (edition) of the game what level of manufacturing would be avaialable to make these components My assumption is the later the war the less likely anyone in North America could make these and the harder it would be to star and operation up. Lots of specialized components. Wire might be vauluable but it might be the only workable system.

Defenses could range from spaced armour plates, heavy forms of chain link fencing, rebar or slat armour. If we are talking an area close to a "hot" border a lot of methods of overcoming these missiles may already be in place. Mortars are a little harder to protect against.

The anti-Sagger drill for the 1970-80s US Army was for the tank that first spotted the launch signature to immediately fire whatever was in the gun tube at the site, then reload with HE or WP and start firing to either side, the other tank in the section would engage with coax and HMG. At the same time, drivers would engage the vehicle smoke generators and make a hard left or right turn. The tank commander would also fire the first bank of projectiles from the smoke launchers.

The intent was to kill, wound or suppress the missile operator, throw off the operator`s sight picture with a rapid and extreme movement, and finally to obscure the area with smoke, allowing the tanks to use their night vision/thermal sights to locate the operator.

This specific movement was intended for the two tank "light" section bounding forward to contact. The overwatching three tank "heavy" selection would immediately empty their gun tubes to the left and right of the launch sir and then switch to HE and WP rounds. With a half dozen APDS/HEAT rounds, followed up another volley of HE/WP rounds and several bursts of machine gun would throw off the operator.

At the company level, calls would be made for battalion mortars to "hip shoot" the area, followed by a fire mission from the supporting artillery battery.

The Soviets had a similar anti-missile defence. This was what made ATGMs such a pain in the ass, it wasn't the tracked launcher or the man portable missiles, it was the jeep mounted launcher that would fire a round, forcing the anti missile defence and its waste of time in suppressing and deploying, then clearing the area and redeploying for the next movement. In the meantime, the jeep would run back another 1-2 kilometres and start the whole process over and over and over, buying time.

[gamerguy]

The Soviets had a similar anti-missile defence. This was what made ATGMs such a pain in the ass, it wasn't the tracked launcher or the man portable missiles, it was the jeep mounted launcher that would fire a round, forcing the anti missile defence and its waste of time in suppressing and deploying, then clearing the area and redeploying for the next movement. In the meantime, the jeep would run back another 1-2 kilometres and start the whole process over and over and over, buying time.

Ha! As I was reading it before I got to the last line all I could think of was a launch of dummy missiles or blind un guided launches followed up by real launches after the target(s) has unloaded/spent ammo and smoke dischargers and were blinded/engaged and might miss the follow up missiles. A tactic I used in Air to Air gaming launch two missiles, while the target was engaged in the first it put them out of position to deal with the second.

[gamerguy]

After re-reading "Bullets and Bluegrass", it is my impression that the KFS uses multifuel rotary engines for all its vehicles (including the V300, the Bradley and both M60 and M1 tanks. I assume that these "rotary engines" are based on a version of the Wankel engine

(Bullets & Bluegrass page. 9 "All Army and Air Force vehicles use multifuel rotary engines capable of running on virtually any flammable fuel)

However, the powerplant used by the P47 "Thunderbolt" is unspecified. It may simply be a copy of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800. As far as I know, nobody has built a wankel engine with enough power to replace the R-2800, but it may be possible.

At the time the adventures were originally written John Deere was working on this motor. It was all the rage in the technical journals. I just searched for it. It was a complete no go for all the reasons Mazda spent years and billions getting a OK version of the Wankel into cars. Major hurdles to overcome and a company with deep pockets like JD gave up. Part of the concept was for aircraft use. I can't find power but it was supposed to be tank engine power levels which would have made it suitable for P-47 use.

Just another batch of unobtanium. Unless your project relies heavily on fantasy this is a no go. Also why P-47s Yeah the game designer had a fetish is the obvious but there are so many more reasonable choices. Easier and cheaper to produce, etc....

I did a little work on a KFS helicopter unit

https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/2007/07/20/other-aircraft-of-the-kfs-2-heavy-lift-helicopter/

and this is to "rescue" crashed planes

https://morrowproject.wordpress.com/2007/07/21/other-aircraft-of-the-kfs-3-heavy-lift-helicopter/

I'm sure that the KFS military would REALLY like a versatile twin engine transport, like a DHC-4 Caribou or even a DC-3 Dakota - but these are not cheap...

Also, it might be amusing to have the KFS build its own hovercraft. "If the Morrow Project has them...We should have them!"

The KFS probably has the capability to build a sizeable hovercraft like the the API https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...oration_AP1-88

Hovercraft are HELLISHLY LOUD. If forces are expecting it they can hide or set up suitable defenses long before the hovercraft arrives. In 'Nam they only used about a half dozen and called it a day. They could get around the Delta fast and bring troops and reinforcements OVER OPEN CALM WATER. Yes they can go over muskeg or swamps UNLESS they are trees in them thar swamps. Anything which can damage the skirts ends the ride. Armour the skirts they become less flexible and less useful over anything above glass smooth water.

Use them in swamps guided by locals VERY aware of the conditions (think ship pilots used when freighters enter harbours or traverse rivers). Use them on sea shores or vary large lakes like the great lakes and yes they work. Middle of the Eastern US where can they operate for any great area Frankly other than "I gotta have me on" your swamp boats (whatever they are called, flat bottom car motor spinning an aircraft prop in a cage) would be cheaper, as fast and can be sized around for similar capabilities.



I am sorry but I think so much of this post war technology is BS. We only have the ability to do almost all but very basic manufacturing because of the global supply system. It has less to do with left hand widgets are now only made in this town in China (although any game set after 2000 to 2010 would be there) than it is supplies of raw resources would not be flowing, and those that would, would be so limited in quantities almost nothing would be produced. I really think this is one area all MP people like to ignore.

Immediately post war there will be stockpiles of resources in any minor city. You could get things made for the first 10 or 20 years. Then either the stockpiles will be depleted or more likely they will be lost as just getting food for tomorrow takes all your effort and attention. Buildings collapse, mother earth overgrows almost all that remains, etc..

Even the lowest tech like vacuum tubes takes resources that won't be there. Transistors, forget it. Too much stuff is needed. Over the years anything working will be used up. That surviving Radio Shack you been picking over for SCRs for a whatever will be empty and overgrown in 25 years. You are not getting that unobtanium from Walla Walla land anymore. None, nada, period!

So if you really come out 150 years on and WORLD WIDE commerce is NOT back to where is was at the start of the 20th century AT LEAST you will be lucky to have basic iron and steel making, plows, steam, waterwheels and muscle. Cars, forget it. Horse and buggies. Tanks, APCs, planes, fantasy. I don't care how high tech you are you ain't got the stuff to make it, mine it or refine it. At best deposits are in North America of exploitable minerals. Provided they were not where the big glowy parts were. Look into the processes needed to explore (less of an issue), obtain (in viable quantities), process and manufacture any raw resource.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade but nobody seems to want to face this. TMP comes out of its bolt holes they can be gods. KFC or whatever they are called are riding horses using 50 year old worn out guns with lots of ammo they are not allowed to fire through because the guns gotta last another 100 years so you are only allowed to fire 10 shots per year. OK brass, lead, iron gunpowder can be made. Where is the USEABLE quantities of manganese, niobium, chrome, boron etc. needed to produce the steel for the guns or the machine tools needed to produce the guns coming from

[dragoon500ly]

Ha! As I was reading it before I got to the last line all I could think of was a launch of dummy missiles or blind un guided launches followed up by real launches after the target(s) has unloaded/spent ammo and smoke dischargers and were blinded/engaged and might miss the follow up missiles. A tactic I used in Air to Air gaming launch two missiles, while the target was engaged in the first it put them out of position to deal with the second.

There were simulators issued that could duplicate a TOW/Dragon launch, in cases of 12.

They favourite tactic was to fire a series of 2-4 and in the middle of the series, fire the real missile and after the hit bogie out of the area.

[dragoon500ly]

In the armoured cavalry squadrons, the cavalry platoons would deploy with a M-901 TOW track and a M-113 Dragon track for close protection. The TOEs would fire at 2-3000 meters, often remaining for.a.second shot.

The four tank section would deploy a two tank element about 1,500 meters out and would rapid fire 2-3 rounds and fall back to the next fighting position, the second tank element would repeat the process while toe TOWS would reload and engage or fall back to an overwatching position.

The intent was to.keep the Soviets off balance, picking off 2-3 vehicles each time and forcing them to deploy and call in support.

[ArmySGT.]

So if you really come out 150 years on and WORLD WIDE commerce is NOT back to where is was at the start of the 20th century AT LEAST you will be lucky to have basic iron and steel making, plows, steam, waterwheels and muscle. Cars, forget it. Horse and buggies. Tanks, APCs, planes, fantasy. I don't care how high tech you are you ain't got the stuff to make it, mine it or refine it. At best deposits are in North America of exploitable minerals. Provided they were not where the big glowy parts were. Look into the processes needed to explore (less of an issue), obtain (in viable quantities), process and manufacture any raw resource.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade but nobody seems to want to face this. TMP comes out of its bolt holes they can be gods. KFC or whatever they are called are riding horses using 50 year old worn out guns with lots of ammo they are not allowed to fire through because the guns gotta last another 100 years so you are only allowed to fire 10 shots per year. OK brass, lead, iron gunpowder can be made. Where is the USEABLE quantities of manganese, niobium, chrome, boron etc. needed to produce the steel for the guns or the machine tools needed to produce the guns coming from

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.

[.45cultist]

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.

The KFS could easily machine new small arms and ammunition. Using a M series multi-fuel truck engine design to convert the M60 diesel to multi fuel is also doable. They are reverse engineering with modern resources. The rifles are old because they won't replace them, not because they can't replace them.

[gamerguy]

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.

As far as the group it would have to be beyond Morrow Project in size and capacity. All the discussions we have had about keeping the MP off people's radar would be magnified by an order or more magnitude. PLUS it is all being put in a limited are as opposed to MP's dispersion. To pull this off they would be spending something on the order of a trillion dollars. So would TMP.

To manufacture what you are talking about you are talking a hundred thousand knowledgeable people plus all the dependants. You are building a new city somewhere which will quickly have an SSBN something pointed at it.

Two thousand loyal followers gets you the managers for your operation, not the people with the hands on skills. Can't get that from books.

I work in the manufacturing industry and know how many knowledgeable people it takes to do a little manufacturing. The scale you describe (M1s, unlimited ammo, planes) takes layers upon layers of interlocking skills and manufacturing infrastructure. Yes a handful of guys can probably cover all the steel hardening required (my area of knowledge). But you need groups of specialized maintenance personnel (who we just phone and wait a week or two to show up), guys making parts and supplies for our machines, a regular and reliable source of natural gas, propane, and all that entails (lots more people equipment companies, support companies), chemicals, steel, pipe, tooling, and on and on. All these people don't feed anyone but need to be fed as does their families, barbers, plumbers, ...

All this ain't hiding in some little hole in the ground. What you are describing is North America. Yes you are talking a dozen tanks not thousands but the infrastructure of that scale is needed for so much of it.

Unless it was my PMs interpretation I was under the impression Krell was running a large (multi-state) empire. Based on my interactions manufacture was limited to pre WWII tech from salvage.

Please note I was a player not a PM and had/have nothing but the original 1979 pre publication loose leaf binder manual. I made it a point not to ruin the fun of discovery.

My issue is keeping this from turning into high fantasy. You guys are getting so wrapped up in the tech gizmos to very high levels of detail but to my mind are missing "the big picture". I may be wrong, it happened once before, all I am trying to do is have you stop and think about the real world implications. TMP is frankly a science fantasy game. Everything BEM is supposed to have brought back is that so truthfully letting some other faction(s) have some degree of it in the game is fair I suppose. I can live with TMPs goodies just in my mind it was supposed to be the special ones. How long before NK had a buried clan of Kim group, etc..

If you also hold the assumption BEM knew the project was going on in 150 years and lied about the 6 month to 5 year time frame then another can of worms is both opened and closed.

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

[gamerguy]

The KFS could easily machine new small arms and ammunition. Using a M series multi-fuel truck engine design to convert the M60 diesel to multi fuel is also doable. They are reverse engineering with modern resources. The rifles are old because they won't replace them, not because they can't replace them.

With what Who is making the specialized steel for the guns, doing the heat treating, sourcing vanadium, providing cutting tools All this and vast more resources have to be part of KFS. What "modern resources" This is all being done after the big balloon goes up. How many profs does your university have to teach all this You have UniversitIES right It is generations we are talking here.

I loved this game from before it was published but as per my other very long winded rant it is morphing into wilder science fantasy to meet the needs of a couple adventures.

If I am becoming a big thorn let me know and I will shut up. I have been out of it for thirty years so what say do I have

[mmartin798]

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

You hold a much different view of TMP than I think some here do. BEM approached various industrialist to form the Counsel of Tomorrow (CoT). TMP was just a small thing that CoT built using a fraction of their vast mining, manufacturing, research and development capacity. Some of the gear for TMP came from working examples and plans that BEM brought back back from a future and were duplicated by CoT skunkworks. As far as I can tell, TMP just selected and trained people to use cool gear made by the CoT. TMP really doesn't make things itself. So the CoT having members like US Steel or Nucor is not impossible. You can add Bethlehem Steel if you like the 3rd edition timeline. Given that and organizations that have a large manufacturing presence like Boeing, Lockheed, GM, Ford, Motorola, Raytheon, Bristol-Meyer, Pfizer, Dow Corning; steel pre-war and manufacturing capability is not much of an issue. Granted, CoT members knew that most of their employees were going to die, but thanks to their efforts the reconstruction had a chance.

[gamerguy]

Fair enough so TMP is even a smaller entity. More of a design house which outsources manufacturing. KFS has be all the above.

[RandyT0001]

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few thousands of sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines