The Soo Locks

[mmartin798]

671 feet long a 70 feet wide is a smaller freighter

I may have to make a trip to the Great Lakes just to look around.

Yeah, modern freighters are around 1100' long and 100' wide.

[ArmySGT.]

Yeah, modern freighters are around 1100' long and 100' wide.

Ok......... All bulk cargo like coal, coke, sand, etc...... or bulk liquid like fuel

Any containerized (connex) carriers Any car carriers Do anything like cruise ships work these waters

I hear some historical remakes of Brigs, Frigates, etc from the American Revolution and War of 1812 make the "Tall Ships" port tour...... Any of those built there and stay year around

I have never been to the Great Lakes region myself...

I know two gamers in and around Detroit...... I might pick their brains too.

[kato13]

Ok......... All bulk cargo like coal, coke, sand, etc...... or bulk liquid like fuel

Any containerized (connex) carriers Any car carriers Do anything like cruise ships work these waters

I hear some historical remakes of Brigs, Frigates, etc from the American Revolution and War of 1812 make the "Tall Ships" port tour...... Any of those built there and stay year around

I have never been to the Great Lakes region myself...

I know two gamers in and around Detroit...... I might pick their brains too.

When I was trying to put secondary communication hub (or an alternate home to Damocles) on this island

http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.phpp=14396&postcount=1

I looked into what kind of shipping is available on the Great Lakes. I do not think there are ANY dedicated container ships during the times discussed for MP or T2k. There has been some interest in the past 3 years, but I still think it has come to naught.

I would think that container barges would be a possibility during the time periods specified. Or Morrow Development could use the lakes for High Speed test runs of small fast container ships which are capable of trans versing the locks.

The runs would come from the few container capable ports which were mentioned by RN7 here.

In the Mississippi vs Rail thread on the T2k side of the house

http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.phpp=70918&postcount=13

Perhaps Morrow experiments with 6 small high speed container ships for priority Atlantic and Pacific runs. The ships built in Cleveland are shaken out by making speed runs to their owners reclusive island getaway. Given he is a perfectionist in all things, and only speed will make this venture profitable, he demands on time delivery, offloading and load turnarounds under his watchful eye.

I thought this could get me at least a few hundred conex containers onto the island with out a tremendous amount of attention.


I don't think there are any true car carriers (like the huge trans oceanic ones) on the great lakes, but there certainly are dozens if not scores of ferries which can take at least a few cars.

There are small cruise ships and many dinner cruise ships.

[Craig67]

The elephant in the room in this thread is Isle Royale. A manned, resupply base. I've been wondering if this might be Prime II. Location is pretty good, more or less central in North America. The strange fact that they came out of freeze and then couldn't get off the island Who would put a supply base on an island and not give them boats

Yes I've read the stuff on Gary's site about the shore side facility, but really, why not put the boats on the island

[mmartin798]

Ok......... All bulk cargo like coal, coke, sand, etc...... or bulk liquid like fuel

Any containerized (connex) carriers Any car carriers Do anything like cruise ships work these waters

I hear some historical remakes of Brigs, Frigates, etc from the American Revolution and War of 1812 make the "Tall Ships" port tour...... Any of those built there and stay year around

I have never been to the Great Lakes region myself...

I know two gamers in and around Detroit...... I might pick their brains too.

Bulk cargo is the norm around here. Mostly things like ore, grains, salt and rock.

Tall ships do make regular visits to the Great Lakes and there have been a few that spend some tourist seasons here to let people ride them. Though not as many as there used to be.

There are Great Lakes cruise ships, but the timing is important. They were a big thing in the 1950's and then vanished by the end of the 1960's. Around 1997, the cruise business reappeared on the Great Lakes and has grown since then.

Ferries are the only car carriers on the Great Lake that I am aware of.

[mmartin798]

The elephant in the room in this thread is Isle Royale. A manned, resupply base. I've been wondering if this might be Prime II. Location is pretty good, more or less central in North America. The strange fact that they came out of freeze and then couldn't get off the island Who would put a supply base on an island and not give them boats

Yes I've read the stuff on Gary's site about the shore side facility, but really, why not put the boats on the island

Isle Royale is a horrible place for a covert base of any kind. As the entire island is a national park with no wheeled vehicles other than wheelchairs and the few tractors and jeeps used by the park service. Unless you are drilling directly into a cliff from the lake, all the land that is flat or is a reasonable harbor for ships has a ranger station or campground on it. There is no mining or lumber activity that you could use for cover. Unless Morrow completely co-opted the ranger service on Isle Royale, I am not sure how you would have made the base. You would fair much better building such a base on Drummond Island or Beaver Island and hiding the construction as a failed resort.

[Craig67]

Isle Royale is a horrible place for a covert base of any kind..

Yep, totally agree. However, canon says its there so I'd have to go with the " co opting the Ranger Service" point.

I've looked at Beaver Island, I was thinking of placing a Maritime Assault/ Transport team there. It would be a combined MARS/ Support team with 1 SK-5, 1 X Swift Boat and 1 X St. Lawrence Utility Landing craft.

[ArmySGT.]

I am totally good with TMP co-opting the Park Rangers, BLM, and positions in the Departments of Agriculture, Energy, Defense, Human Services, Interior, and FEMA.

That is for another and probably excellent point- counter point discussion.

As for the Soo Locks.

I think of the big ore carriers and cruise ships as the floating villages of the Shipmen....... smaller ships like fishers, ferries, and pilot boats doing the day to day work.

Then I would like to throw in some wood hulled warships with black powder cannon ........ but, with hidden machinery like a diesel engine concealed below decks like a made for movies hull. Just to have fun with players and the KFS.

[Craig67]

Wooden hulled sailing ships are mentioned in one of the adventures, so I can agree with the large metal hull ships being the mobile village and the smaller sail boats doing the day to day work.

[mmartin798]

Here is a picture of a freighter, the Roger Blough, that is in the news since it went aground late last Friday. This picture shows some typical features of a lake freighter. You can see the flat hatches over the various holds. The white arm is the self-unloader. This basically has a pair of belts that gets lowered into the hold and will fill the hold from a source on shore or empty the hold to the shore depending on the direction the belts are operated.

There are 5 holds with 21 hatches on the Roger Blough, each hold is probably around 30' deep. The beam is 105' so lets assume 90' to account for the double hull and that each hold is about 1/7 the 858' length and you can build a housing project in the 90'x120'x30' holds containing 30 2-bed apartments in each, and still have room for food storage and trade goods in the remaining ones.

[mmartin798]

One of the questions I ask myself as part of this process is whether or not Lake Erie and up are landlocked and unable to enter Lake Ontario and the Atlantic Ocean. To make that trip, ships small enough need to traverse the Welland Canal at Niagra Falls and then the locks on the St. Lawrence River. Both of these passages are not short and consist of a very large number of locks. I will use the Welland Canal as an example. The map here show the two air burst targets close enough to have any effect on the Welland Canal. Thorold is SW of the center of the 1 PSI overlap area. This is the location of the southern most lift lock in the canal. The northern most lift lock is 3 km inland, putting it about even with the top of the 3 PSI ring of St. Catharines. This section of the canal has 7 of the 8 locks. The 8th lock is on the Lake Erie end to compensate for the changing lake level.

Then there is the 43 km length of the canal to consider. Is the entire canal under one parties control or are there many Chains and cables could be strung across the canal to bar travel until appropriate toll is paid at just about any point along the canal.

The situation on the St. Lawrence River is similar. I really just want to get a handle on how separated the various Great Lake and the Atlantic would be.

[nuke11]

Getting a ship up thru locks 3 thru 7 is going to be the really tricky part. I'm not sure without electricity this is going to be all that easy. They are all within the blast radius of the St. Catharine's strike, so damage is going to be sustained.

[ArmySGT.]

Well....... it wouldn't be TMP with out a complicated answer.

I would make them landlocked.... Something only the TMP with pre-War knowledge and no local ties or feuds to interfere with has the exact expertise to bring back online.

The Canal would be there with a trickle running through it, canoes and rafts carry some things down stream. A road, if there isn't one with mules bring people, craft, and material back up stream.

For ease on the PD, I would give the Canal over to one despotic Warlord that funds his villainous campaigns with the tolls from the canal. Give him Roman style forts, such as Mile Forts, like once guarded Hadrian's Wall scattered at intervals the length of the canal. That would give the Warlord a sizeable force, but one in small enough packets that the Team would have some effectiveness.

Some grudging respect or cooperation from the Shipmen, Townsfolk, and Gypsy Truckers because the Warlord does keep the canal open and enforces a local peace.

Some local resistance forces operating in the area of the canals lock because that complicates things further..... "Free the Canal!" "No Tolls on Trade!".

Some saboteurs from out of the area trying to kill the Warlords troops, wreck trade on the water and road, as well as put any functioning locks out of commission. There to disrupt things and hurt the Warlords income and blunt his fighting or ability to go on campaign.

Just to further monkey wrench a Team... make the Warlord responsible for so good works like a Hospital with Emdees, and some guest teachers from a far away University to educate orphans. Make sure the Warlord owns an holds open the safe trade camp, farmers market, and flea market.

[mmartin798]

The more I think about it, ships would be land locked by the state of the Canal. Even with the proximity to the blast at St Catharine, the hydraulic pumps could be operated by some other means or the lock door and valves be operated by draft animals if needed. They would not open and close that often. The many bridges that have collapsed into the Canal and the lack of dredging would make it such that only small craft could make the trip, as Sgt suggests, effectively stopping large ships.

I like the warlord concept. Making him actually helpful to reconstruction is a nice complication.