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LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS

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  • The sad thing in the great debate over WWII US tank armament is just how much influence that misunderstanding of the use of armor had on it.

    Like a lot of military powers, the US was shocked by the speed of the German Blitzkrieg and like a lot of military powers, they drew the wrong conclusions.
    The major misobservation was that armor was capable of overrunning everything and that there would be little, if any tank vs tank action (I am aware that there was actually major tank battles in the 1940 French campaign, but this was what US observers reported back...).

    Faced with the prospect of tanks breaking through at will and tearing into the rear areas to spread fear and chaos, the US adopted three major changes.

    First, tanks vs tanks will seldom occur on a battlefield, therefore tanks do not need a high-velocity cannon, but rather one that was capable of firing a large HE round (This is what led to the develop of the M-2 and M-3 75mm cannons).

    Second, that due to fact that tanks will acheive breakthroughs at will, rear echelon units will need antitank protection (this led to the appearance of 37mm towed antitank guns and later bazookas).

    And third, that specific vehicles designed for antitank use needed to be fielded (the birth of the Tank Destroyer Corps).

    This misconception is what led to the Lee/Grant being armed with the short barreled M-2 75mm (later replaced by the M-3 75mm) as well as the Sherman being outfitted with the M-3 75mm and being issued with the AP and APC rounds. Almost as soon as the Sherman saw its first combat at El Alemain, the tankers started asking for a better cannon. There was never any problem with the HE round, but the AP round lacked decent penetration over its entire effective range. The development of the APC round helped, but the 75mm still lagged behind the Germans 75mm. It was not until the Normandy Campaign that the Ordnance Department allowed the fighting of the M-1 76mm cannon, and even then, its scale of issue was one tank in a platoon. The British were able to field the 17-pounder in time for Normandy, but again, the scale of issue was one troop out of a squadron.
    The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

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    • Re: Shermans and 75mm

      Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
      The sad thing in the great debate over WWII US tank armament is just how much influence that misunderstanding of the use of armor had on it.
      There was a neat book by a WW2 Ordnance officer (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8327745-death-traps) that stated that the tank 75mm suffered from design by committee. Ordnance and Artillery wanted the gun to be made to their standards, meaning it could be fired 1,000-plus times without significant barrel wear. That meant a lower muzzle velocity.

      I understood that the M8 or LAV-75 was to be using a much higher-velocity 75mm, like the Panther or even the Scorpion(), so the muzzle bore itself wasn't a problem.
      My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.

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      • Death Traps is an excellent read....the author has even been on the history or military channel to discuss his experiences. He tol of sending new infantry recruits off in M-4 Shermans as replacements in France...because that's what his orders were....to find that all or all but one were knocked out at the end OF THAT DAY. That mn sat there and cried about it 60 years later...one of the toughest things I've ever seen.

        Another good one is "Death By Design" by Peter Boyle, a member of the UK's Armored Forces in WW2. It gives more than a little perspective at the challenges faced by Commonwealth tankers. I wanted to throw it at the wall repeatedly out of horror and anger at the REMF's back in England who sent gallant men out to die in tanks that were more metal coffin than a machine of war.

        The horror's faced by American and Commonwealth tankers in WW2 Europe can be traced to incompetent cowards who sat well out of harm's way.

        -Dave

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        • Originally posted by schnickelfritz View Post
          The horror's faced by American and Commonwealth tankers in WW2 Europe can be traced to incompetent cowards who sat well out of harm's way.
          If only it had stopped there.

          Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
          And that's EXACTLY my position which I've tried time and time and time again over the past few years to convey.
          Good to see this position is finally being understood WITHOUT the hatred and vitriol displayed previously.
          Point taken. Regarding past vitriol, I suggest that delivery has something to do with how the message is received.

          Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
          Webstrals excellent work on "Thunder Empire" is an perfect example of this - it may not exactly be canon, but it makes for a damn fine read.
          I appreciate the kudos.

          Originally posted by Raellus View Post
          I guess a part of this debate is connected to how one views the T2K timeline.

          I like to see T2K as an alternative history/universe, where the Cold War didn't end in 1989-1991 and, instead, the T2K v1.0 timeline occured. Therefore, I like to keep as much gear from canon as I can.
          As a dedicated v1 type, I wholeheartedly agree.
          “We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.

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          • Sherman Development, Part I

            The defentive source on the Sherman is the book "Sherman" by R.P. Hunnicutt, this massive tome traces the history of US tank developement starting in 1919. Its the best researched book that I've found on the subject and he has a lot of useful information on the development of the 75mm. I'm paraphasing a lot of the info!

            The first US tank to mount a 75mm was the T-1 development tank in 1926, its turret was fitted with a 75mm pack howitzer firing a reduced powder charge, it quickly proved its HE ammo to be very effective against the older WWI light tanks. However the T-1 had mechanical problems so it became a non-starter and thus ended development of the 75mm for the next few years.

            Next up was the T-2 fitted with a 47mm cannon (ala the Vickers medium tank). There were developmental problems (lack of money), so the US started work on the 37mm.

            The next series of test vehicles, the T-3 thru T-5 focused on the 37mm cannon as the best weapon. The 75mm pack howitzer came back with the T-5 in a sponson mount once again it showed promise, but the T-5 was never approved for series production.

            The M-2 and M-2A1 were the first production tank since the Mark VIII Liberty tank of 1918. Main armament was the 37mm cannon. Entering service in 1940, events in Europe rapidly overtook the vehicle.

            With the news from Europe, crash development of a more modern vehicle took place. The 37mm cannon was already considered to be inadequate and a need for a larger caliber was apparant, even to the Ordnance Department. The M-3 medium tank was a crash development to mount a larger caliber gun. There difficulties in casting a turret large enough to mount a 75mm cannon, so the decision was made to mount a 37mm gun and fit a 75mm gun in a sponson mount. Another factor in the decision was that the T-5 had worked out most of the problems in a sponson mount. The M-3 entered service in March of 1941.

            Needless to say, a sponson mount was not ideal, it was known early on that having to expose most of the tank in order to fire was not a good thing. But until more industrial capacity could be freed up, the M-3 Lee/Grant was the only way to get a 75mm cannon into the hands of the troops.
            The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

            Comment


            • Sherman Development, Part II

              The Sherman started out as the T-6 developmental tank of April, 1941. With a new casting process allowing for a larger turret, the 75mm sponson mount could be safely deleted. The turret was also designed with a removable front plate to permit the fitting of different armament combinations. Initially, the T-6 was fitted with a 75mm M-2 (the short 75); but a twin 37mm; a 105mm howitzer and British 6-pounder mounts were all designed.

              It quickly became apparant that the 75mm version would be the preferred mount, but there were problems with the 75mm M-2 gun. The new M-3 75mm gun (the long 75), now entering service with the M-3 Lee was selected as the new main armament.

              The 75mm M-2 and M-3 tank cannons were developments of the original 75mm pack howitzer, being fitted with semiautomatic breeches and longer barrels. The M-2 is a 75mm/31.1 (barrel length 91.75-inches) and the M-3 is a 75mm/40.1 (barrel length 118.38-inches).

              The standard armor piercing round was the APC round. I found a comparsion of the armor penetration of the various calibers to be of intrest:

              These are the Aberdeen PG test results against Homogeneous armor at 30 degrees obliquity:

              37mm at 500yds (53mm); at 1000yds (46mm); at 1500yds (40mm); at 2000yds (35mm)

              2 pounder at 500yds (58mm); at 1000yds (52mm); at 1500yds (46mm); at 2000yds (40mm)

              6 pounder at 500yds (81mm); at 1000yds (74mm); at 1500yds (63mm); at 2000yds (56mm)

              75mm M-3 at 500yds (66mm); at 1000yds (60mm); at 1500yds (55mm); at 2000yds (50mm)

              3-inch at 500yds (93mm); at 1000yds (88mm); at 1500yds (82mm); at 2000yds (75mm)

              76mm at 500yds (93mm); at 1000yds (88mm); at 1500yds (82mm); at 2000yds (75mm)

              17 pounder at 500yds (140mm); at 1000yds (130mm); at 1500yds (120mm); at 2000yds (111mm)

              90mm at 500yds (129mm); at 1000yds (122mm); at 1500yds (114mm); at 2000yds (106mm)

              Again, a big thanks to "Sherman"!!!!
              The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

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              • Comment


                • I know the German Army was short of troops by 1945 but even so...

                  My money would be on Peter Rabbit, Tank Killer by Sven Hassel and Beatrix Potter if they went head to head though...

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                  • Originally posted by Raellus View Post
                    The LAV-75 was based, I believe, on the chasis of the M113 APC. I was looking at a Osprey book on the M151 Sheridan when I came across an actual photograph of what GDW called the LAV-75. I had to do a double-take. I read up on it and I'm pretty sure it said it was based on the M113 chasis. If I was a millionaire, I would have bought the book just for that one photo and paragraph.

                    On a cool little side note, I just Googled LAV-75 to see if I could find a pic of the actual LAV-75 (I can't remember the official designation of the prototype) to prove to Mo that it was real and the first two things that popped up were our forum threads!
                    Posted on the old board. Long time stalker on this... I hope this link works but if it does you photo is on p. 43...



                    There's loads of other stuff too. (It takes a while to load...)

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                    • This is what I myself would do (not suggest to anyone else, just do) about the LAV-75:

                      Way early on in the war the LAV75 was brought into the European theater in limited numbers. It'd had a lot of success in the middle-east against T55s and Soviet light armored vehicles, but was now being put in a new theater using new blitzkrieg style tactics against heavy Soviet armor and consequently was getting whalloped. AAI went back to the drawing board and produced the LAV-105-E (Europe) and a majority got quickly retrofitted. The balance of non-refitted LAV75s were kept back as rear area security.

                      When things went nuclear, and reinforcements were short, the '75 was pressed back into frontline service as an "MBT" and as standard M1s (mostly in the hands of National Guard units) began to run short of M68 ammunition, with lots and lots of 75mm HV ammo and turret kits for the LAVs available, as some were pulled back for maintenance they were re-converted back to the LAV-75 standard, especially those with damaged 105 turrets, rather than repaired as LAV-105s.

                      So circa summer 2000, there's plenty of LAV-75s still in the mix, as well as LAV-105s.
                      Last edited by raketenjagdpanzer; 03-12-2012, 02:48 PM.
                      THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.

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                      • Originally posted by Brit View Post
                        Posted on the old board. Long time stalker on this... I hope this link works but if it does you photo is on p. 43...



                        There's loads of other stuff too. (It takes a while to load...)
                        I was always reminded of this...

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                        • Couple things that the 80s GI-Joe cartoon/toy line had were "real life" based - Grumman and NASA flew an FSW (the X-29) that bore a strong resemblance to the Joes' catch-all fighter plane, and obviously their tank was based very much on AAI's RDF/LT offering.

                          Sadly we had no V-TOL A10s (the Cobra "Rattler")
                          THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by raketenjagdpanzer View Post
                            Sadly we had no V-TOL A10s (the Cobra "Rattler")
                            Give it time...

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                            • Not wanting to start a new thread but there should be some useful stuff here. It's downloadable copies of 'Armoured Car', a magazine seemingly published between 1990 and 1996, i.e. just the right period. There might even be something on the LAV-75, etc! (There's an index to five years of them available).

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                              • Originally posted by Fusilier View Post
                                I was always reminded of this...

                                lol

                                and now you know and knowing is half the battle!

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