Conscript Armies

[Mohoender]

I don't recall that we ever discussed this except for US. Then, most US members saw draft (extended one at least) as almost impossible under the condition of T2K. I don't doubt what they say and I'm sure they are right.

However, things would be entirely different for European armies fighting in the twilight war as most were using conscription (Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland and Austria still rely on it).

For UK, I don't remember and let our well active UK members do the talking. I'll do the same for people from the Norsern countries.

For several more countries I don't know (or I'm not very accurate) and I would like to see your insight (Many among us might know) before I try to find out.

Then, I have more than a clue for at least three countries: France, Belgium and Portugal.

Portugal had military service until the mid-1990's but several portuguese could avoid it (paying someone to replace them). A well educated portuguese man in his 20's and 30's would have had a good chance to have avoided military training. However, many portuguese in their mid-30's and 40's would add active military training as many among them had fought in Colonial wars up to 1975.

France and Belgium also had military training up to the mid-1990's: 1996 for France (with an official end of conscription in 2001) and slightly earlier for Belgium. Both countries had similar systems and, therefore, you'll find similar skills within their population. Military service was to be done between 18 and 25. It certainly concerned 2/3 of the population.

Young people (18-30) would have gone through more limited training (generally 10 month) and would know more of the basics (learn driving, to use an assault rifle and grenades). Then, several among them would have chosen long term service (10-15%). Those would have received full training in two ways: two terms of full military training or one term of training and one term of active duty (in UN mission, or in petty wars abroad). Those who had undergone long term service would have had two experiences: 1 term in home service and 1 abraod (French Dom-Tom or Brazil).

Older people (30-40) would have received better training (12 month) and would now more. However, they would have had forgotten part of it. Among them, several would have chosen long term military service as well.

Then the oldest people drafted (40+) would now even more as they would have undergone at least 16 month of military service that were much more pushy.

In addition, several people would have done officer training (also long term) and these guys were pretty good, serving in the reserve.

A consequences of this, is that most men in Europe are not simple civilians as described in the game. Most went through some kind of military training and many had fighting experiences. Of course, they would not be as good as professional soliders but they were far from being wild turkeys. In addition (at least in the West), you find a fair amount of weapons in the various villages.

I know we can go much deeper into this but I have not enough time at the moment. Give us your opinion.

[TiggerCCW UK]

The current British Army is a volunteer army, but during the second world war there was widespread conscription, although not in Northern Ireland. National service continued 1960 iirc. I can see a draft coming in again, and I seem to remember the UK survivors guide mentioning it, both on the mainland and in Northern Ireland, although (again iirc) I think the recruitment in Northern Ireland was purely for local service.

[headquarters]

conscription in Norway

Although the numbers dwindle every year due to budget cuts, we still conscript thousands to serve in all arms -and have done so since the 1820s in the modern sense of the word.

Typically men get the call up at 19 and serve 12 months or 6 months with regular call ups for reservist training .

Also we have a largish national guard that is more and more volunteers .

In the heyday of the late 70s and early 80s combined numbers of all arms was app 180 000 personell counting everything from cooks to commandos.Service length has varied with political climate and at one time it was 18 months army and 24 months in the navy .( Between the world wars it was as low as 3 months )

It dropped of since then and today it numbers around 50 000 national guard and around 10 000 regular army/navy/airforce.

I would say the typical training is fair in quality and that conscripts are fairly motivated -many units will only take conscripts that actually volunteer for their service to be in that unit .

That being said we are in no way a very fierce people ...but on our home turf I guess we would fight more tenaciously .

Today our whole military has been scaled down from the cold war doctrines of large pitched battles to the modern assymetrical warfare and " operations " style army .(Meaning that it does more policing actions and enforcing sovereignity issues than train for an actual large scale war )

[Fusilier]

I would say the typical training is fair in quality and that conscripts are fairly motivated...

IMO a conscript army doesn't always imply low morale and a substandard level of training. While that may be common, its not always the case. The British for example still had conscription during the Korea and Malayan campaigns in the 50s - where conscripts have been noted to have performed very well.

[Canadian Army]

Canadian Conscription

Canada has had Conscription only once; during World War II, and then it limited to homeland defence; at first, but, then expanded it overseas service. I recently finished article about Canadian Conscription in Twilight 2000; I will post it after this weekend.

[Marc]

The Spanish Army is today full professional army, since 2001, I think. When I left the Batall3n de Instruccion Paracaidista (Basic Parachute/Legion training) and joined the Parachute Brigade in December 1998, the last conscripts were still serving in the Spanish Army. They were only performing basic tasks (kitchen service, cleaning, administrative tasks) releasing the professional soldiers from these works. These conscripts of the last years before the transition to a professional army, were probably the worst trained soldiers in the history of the Spanish Army. Not only they were unable to avoid the conscription (an easy thing if you had a job or if you were studying), but the army has reserved for them all the non-military duties once they finished the basic training.

Of course things didn't work in that way when the Spanish Army was based in conscription. Then all the units were integrated for conscript soldiers an they assume any the available roles (below NCO rank). The best and hardest units, like the Spanish Legion,the Parachute Brigade, and the COE (Special Forces), were formed by volunteer conscripts. It was usual that, in the first days of his military service, the conscript received in his assigned unit,the visit of a delegation from the Legion, the COE and the Paras, each of them trying to recruit him.

[Mohoender]

I'm already seeing some interesting things people. Thanks and keep it coming, interesting peaces of information. I agree that conscript armies are often performing very well and that is exactly my point, especially if you follow the v1.0 timeline (even if you follow the v2.2). IMO, most soldiers in Europe (outside the few professional armies: Canada, UK, US) will have civilian background with a time of military instruction taking place at some point in their personnal history. Several will have gone back to their civilian life before being drafted for the war while the most dedicated ones will be skilled professionnals who are following civilian carreers sometime and at the same time.

Back in the mid-80's my computer teacher was a staff sergeant in one of the french parachutist regiment. When he was not teaching us, he had been stationned in Chad and in Beyrouth.

Tigger, if I understand you well, the British army during the cold war was already a professional one

Marc, from what I read from you, it seems that Spain followed exactly the same path than France.

[Targan]

The last time the Australian military had conscription was during the Vietnam War, but its been volunteer-only since then. Australian conscripts have done very well in war though. IIRC most of the Australian soldiers that fought in the Battle of Long Tan were conscripts and that battle resulted in one company of Australian infantry (with artillery support) defeating a Viet Cong regiment plus elements of an NVA battalion. The Australians lost 18 dead and the Vietnamese lost at least 245 dead, probably more. A very good kill ratio IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Long_Tan

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm kind of mixed on this. The US has used the draft for much of its modern history -- most of the Greatest Generation were draftees.

But when I was in the Army, the general consensus among us was that we didn't want to be fighting alongside draftees. We didn't want someone backing us up who hadn't paid proper attention to his training because he had no wish to be there. We felt they were more likely to panic due to that lesser attention to detail. We generally felt that modern draftees, with the difference in work ethic and national spirit felt in our day, might even be dangerous to have around.

Hell, you have a hard enough time with troops who join the Army and then find out that they really aren't cut out for it.

[pmulcahy11b]

The last time the Australian military had conscription was during the Vietnam War, but its been volunteer-only since then. Australian conscripts have done very well in war though. IIRC most of the Australian soldiers that fought in the Battle of Long Tan were conscripts and that battle resulted in one company of Australian infantry (with artillery support) defeating a Viet Cong regiment plus elements of an NVA battalion. The Australians lost 18 dead and the Vietnamese lost at least 245 dead, probably more. A very good kill ratio IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Long_Tan

My stepmonster told me of a time that his unit was ordered in to back up and clean up after an attack on a Viet Cong village by ROK Rangers. Turned out that the US Marines weren't necessary -- there wasn't anything left to clean up. Even the Marines were astounded at the devastation.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Tigger, if I understand you well, the British army during the cold war was already a professional one

Yeah, national service/conscription ended in the British army in 1960 (I think, certainly not much later than that).

[Legbreaker]

Conscripts can be some of the most effective troops also. In some instances, they've not received enough training to know a hopeless situation when they see on so keep on fighting. Later, after the dust settles, they're still sitting in place, the enemy dead piled up all around them....

Japan's advance over the Kokoda track in Papua New Ginea in 1942 was met in the intial weeks by only an extremely poorly trained militia battalion. Facing them were over 10,000 of Japan's soldiers.

In WWII the Australian militia weren't even supposed to be outside Australia - New Guinea however was at the time under Australian administration, so the rules were bent and the division was sent. Initially they were used solely for construction works and not given any time for training. After reports of Japanese landings on the northern coastline however, they were the only unit in position to do anything about them.

If they'd not held, it's almost certain Port Moresby would have fallen, and a fair bet Australia would have suffered invasion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/39th_Battalion_(Australia)#Kokoda_Track

While not exactly factual, this movie is definately worth watching. It's a fairly accurate depiction of just how bad the conditions were (although the actual duration of the fighting withdrawal across the mountains was MUCH longer and tougher).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokoda_(film)

[Adm.Lee]

I can't recall it being mentioned, but I'd always assumed the US would have resurrected Selective Service in 1996 or 1997. After all, it was kept around through the 1980s and 1990s for "the big one," and I think a conventional war with the Soviet Union sure counted for that.

For the British, I'd think the same would be in order.

I agree that European characters should have had some military half-term under the v2 chargen rules.

[Graebarde]

I can't recall it being mentioned, but I'd always assumed the US would have resurrected Selective Service in 1996 or 1997. After all, it was kept around through the 1980s and 1990s for "the big one," and I think a conventional war with the Soviet Union sure counted for that.

For the British, I'd think the same would be in order.

I agree that European characters should have had some military half-term under the v2 chargen rules.

I agree that the US would reinstate the draft in '97. Those training divisions that are activated would be running the training for the draftees.

As for quality of troops, I served in both the draft era and volar (what they called the 'new' all volunteer army back at the start). For the most part, the draftees were more indepth education wise, contrary to some popular belief, and they were dedicated soldiers IMO for the most part. Better IMO than the guy who enlisted at the judges option of three years in the army or three in the pen... one in a hundred of them took the break they got and kept straight/out of trouble I think.

[Legbreaker]

I started out in a reserve unit, and man for man, I'd say they were a damn fine unit.
While not perhaps the most skilled combat soldiers (they were only part timers after all), their civilian occupations brought in a whole new range of skills and experiences to the mix. In a Post Halocaust situation such as T2K, this is definately the type of unit I'd want to be in.
Farmers, carpenters, electricians, mechanics, barbers, computer programers, you name it, just about every occupation you could want was represented.