YaATW2KT: The Second Mexican-American War

[dragoon500ly]

There were tons of ships returning empty from Europe (and I guess the Middle East and Korea) throughout the war. Could some of the Armor be tanks that were deemed too hard to fix in theater perhaps requiring total rebuilds.

Now that I think about it. Given how compressed the Korean theater would be, if there is territory loss there simply might not be room for a tank that would be out of commission for 30+ days. Sending it back to the US might be more likely there than other theaters.

At the height of the Vietnam War, it was standard practice to ship damaged/worn out armored vehicles back to the States to one of the Army Depots for rebuilding. The main depot for this work was Anniston AD in Alabama. Even the Vietnam War ended in 1973, Anniston still had large numbers of M-48s and M-113s that were being rebuilt as late is 1989.

[Olefin]

FYI looking at possible SPG's for the Mexican Army as well

In real life at that time what they had were five still operational M8 Howitzer Motor Carriage with 75mm howitzers

They could have gotten more of them (by then probably from collectors only) or possibly retrofitted some of their M5 tanks to M8's - but I think there is a better source for them

Frank Chadwick has them outfitted with M109's and M110's but I dont see that happening - they just dont fit the overall motif of the Mexican Army - but I have a pretty good idea what they might have for SPG's if they did get more in time for the invasion - which would be Spain

Spain by 1989 had fully transitioned to M109 and M110 howitzers - but they had a lot of older ones that were still functional - i.e.

24 M-44AA 155mm SPG
4 M-55 203mm SPG
48 M-108 105mm SPG
8 M-52A1 105mm SPG

All with Spanish language operational and repair manuals

Thats a nice little haul of SPG's that would be available for sale - even if say only half of them were still operational and OK for sale

And while not as capable as an M109 or M110 they are a heck of a lot better than a handful of old M8 Howitzer Motor Carriages

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Yeah I think M109s strains the credibility a bit but M110s I really can't see the US selling them to Mexico for any reason whatsoever.
The US might not allow Spain to sell their surplus 155 and 203mm SPGs to Mexico but I imagine they would have less objection to the sale of the 105mm SPGs. Even just the M108s would be a significant boost for the Mexican forces.

[RN7]

Spain by 1989 had fully transitioned to M109 and M110 howitzers - but they had a lot of older ones that were still functional - i.e.

24 M-44AA 155mm SPG
4 M-55 203mm SPG
48 M-108 105mm SPG
8 M-52A1 105mm SPG

All with Spanish language operational and repair manuals

Thats a nice little haul of SPG's that would be available for sale - even if say only half of them were still operational and OK for sale

And while not as capable as an M109 or M110 they are a heck of a lot better than a handful of old M8 Howitzer Motor Carriages

By 1992 Spain had disposed of some of these units.

Spanish artillery stocks in 1992.

12 M110A2 SP 203mm
102 M109A1 SP 155mm (6 Marines)
48 M108 SP 105mm
12 M52A1 SP 105mm (12 Marines)

24 M115 203mm
84 M114 155mm
160 M1931/37 122mm
182 Mod 56 105mm (12 Marines)
284 M-26 105mm

[Olefin]

By 1992 Spain had disposed of some of these units.

Spanish artillery stocks in 1992.

12 M110A2 SP 203mm
102 M109A1 SP 155mm (6 Marines)
48 M108 SP 105mm
12 M52A1 SP 105mm (12 Marines)

24 M115 203mm
84 M114 155mm
160 M1931/37 122mm
182 Mod 56 105mm (12 Marines)
284 M-26 105mm

Correct - so the question is would some of those possibly be disposed by transferring them to Mexico

And that still leaves a good amount of M108's to possibly transfer to Mexico - maybe not all of them - but even as few as 16 of them would greatly add to Mexico's capabilities as to SPG's

[RN7]

Correct - so the question is would some of those possibly be disposed by transferring them to Mexico

And that still leaves a good amount of M108's to possibly transfer to Mexico - maybe not all of them - but even as few as 16 of them would greatly add to Mexico's capabilities as to SPG's

I think it would be possible but probably dependent on if Spain didn't want to keep them for its own army. In real life Spain still had the M108 in service in 1992, but had already scrapped the M55 and M44. Spain had now acquired the M110 and M109 and had likely relegate the M108 to the reserves. If Spain didn't want to keep them in service, Mexico would have to had shown a keen interest in acquiring them before Spain scrapped them. That would be a number of years before the start of Twilight War. Otherwise the M108 would be completely de-militarised by Spain and sold for scrap, and Mexico would have to get what it could from thrawling through scrapyards and rebuilding them.

[Olefin]

I think it comes down to when you would think Mexico would start to rebuild their forces - i.e. if you look at real world they had two big buys of armored military equipment - the buy from France that went mid-80's to early 90's and the buy from Belgium in the mid-90's to late 90's

that could give you a complete difference as to what equipment could be out there to acquire based on those dates

Thus if you go with increasing the 1980's buy the older equipment is in play versus going for an early to mid 90's buy to get SPG's

second question - if the Cold War continues V1 vs it doesnt V2 does Spain keep their M108's in reserve or do they sell them to generate cash for the military to get newer equipment

also - does anyone have any idea when the Tunisian army replaced their M108's - they had 48 but from what I understand they are now using M109's - again another possible place to get SPG's -

and I agree the 105 mm is the best bet I can see for them as they really dont need the 155 unless it was a planned war against the US - which isnt really the canon in its current form (and by that I mean a pre-planned effort by Mexico to prepare for war with the US predating the Russo-Chinese war start)

[pmulcahy11b]

Yeah I think M109s strains the credibility a bit but M110s I really can't see the US selling them to Mexico for any reason whatsoever.
The US might not allow Spain to sell their surplus 155 and 203mm SPGs to Mexico but I imagine they would have less objection to the sale of the 105mm SPGs. Even just the M108s would be a significant boost for the Mexican forces.

Most 203mm barrels were chopped up and modified starting just before the 1st Gulf War to make the bodies of 5000-pound bunker buster smart bombs. They are still in construction at a low level, but I don't know if they are still using 203mm barrels.

[RN7]

I think it comes down to when you would think Mexico would start to rebuild their forces - i.e. if you look at real world they had two big buys of armored military equipment - the buy from France that went mid-80's to early 90's and the buy from Belgium in the mid-90's to late 90's

that could give you a complete difference as to what equipment could be out there to acquire based on those dates

Thus if you go with increasing the 1980's buy the older equipment is in play versus going for an early to mid 90's buy to get SPG's

second question - if the Cold War continues V1 vs it doesnt V2 does Spain keep their M108's in reserve or do they sell them to generate cash for the military to get newer equipment

The two big Mexican arms buys were basically new equipment bought from France in the 1980's, and second hand equipment bought from Belgium and the U.S. from the mid-1990's. But remember in the post-Cold War 1990's the market was flooded with weapons of all types from both NATO and former Warsaw Pact countries and others, and Mexico if had a bit of cash to spare could have got anything it wanted quite cheaply from multiple sources. But Mexico chose to buy clapped out second hand French built armoured personnel carriers from the Belgian Army. This may have been because they were already using French equipment, but more likely because they were dirt cheap to obtain as Mexican financial resources were limited.

Mexico is supposed to have received 401 AMX-VCI and 95 BDX delivered from Belgium 1994 and 1996, all second hand including some modernised before delivery and rebuilt in Mexico and designated DNC-1 and DNC-2. However the record also only shows that only 74 vehicles were delivered from Belgium between 1994 and 1996. This is because these were the only actual Belgian military vehicles exported to Mexico, the rest were demilitarised vehicles or hulls and parts taken from scrap yards in Belgium and probably France and rebuilt and rearmed in Mexico well into the 2000's.

also - does anyone have any idea when the Tunisian army replaced their M108's - they had 48 but from what I understand they are now using M109's - again another possible place to get SPG's -

Sometime in the early 1990's I believe as in 1992 they had 18 M109s but still had 10 M108s.

[mpipes]

Paul is incorrect to a point. Relatively few 203mm barrels have been used to date. These bombs are designated GBU-28 and made from stockpiled, shot out barrels. No guns were decommissioned to make the bombs. I seem to recall recently reading somewhere that about 500 have been produced and are stockpiled.

[Olefin]

Been looking at Challenge 27 (came out in 1986 after Red Star Lone Star came out that same year) and the article that Frank Chadwick wrote and figured I would post it here for those who dont have that article so they could see what people are referring to when they talk about it

The totals he had in his article for the Mexican Army as to possible armor and mech vehicles they had are as follows

Mechanized Infantry Brigades - 2

Each with two mech inf regiments with 40 VAB APC, one armored recon regiment (which was the size of a battalion) with 17 ERC-90 and 34 VAB APC and one SPG battalion of 6 M109 and 12 M108's

Thus the total he had for SPG's was 12 M109 and 24 M108 for the whole Mexican Army (i.e. betting he didnt know they had the 5 M8 Scott's)

There were also:

Armored Cav Regiments (sized as a battalion) - 3

Each with 17 ERC-90 and 34 VAB APC

Regional Brigades - i.e. Inf Brigades - 36 regional brigades

Each averaging one motorized cav regiment (really a battalion - see below), two infantry regiments and one battery of artillery

The armor would be concentrated in the single motorized cav regiment that either had two squadrons of truck/Jeep born infantry and one mixed squadron of ERC-90/VAB of 17 total vehicles or was three squadrons of truck/Jeep born infantry (he mentioned "some" had armor but no other details)

Frank was one of the designers for the Red Star Lone Star module as well so his Challenge Magazine article gives an insight as to what the canon authors has as the OOB for the Mexican Army had at the time of the invasion using what they had in 1986 when both were written.

I have looked thru his article and there are a lot of omissions obviously- i.e. the APC's and other vehicles the Mexican Army had in reality in 1986 for one, for another units like their parachutists and Marines - hopefully this info will further stimulate this thread and the discussion here - which is one of the best we have had in quite a while

[The Dark]

Paul is incorrect to a point. Relatively few 203mm barrels have been used to date. These bombs are designated GBU-28 and made from stockpiled, shot out barrels. No guns were decommissioned to make the bombs. I seem to recall recently reading somewhere that about 500 have been produced and are stockpiled.

The BLU-113/B warheads for the GBU-28 are made from retired M110 barrels; the vehicles were already out of service, and the barrels were awaiting a disposal disposition, since nothing else used a 203mm barrel. BLU-113A/B and (to the best of my knowledge) all BLU-122 variants are new-build, not from artillery barrels. AFAIK, somewhere between 100 and 125 BLU-113/B warheads were built before they switched over to the A/B.

[Olefin]

The BLU-113/B warheads for the GBU-28 are made from retired M110 barrels; the vehicles were already out of service, and the barrels were awaiting a disposal disposition, since nothing else used a 203mm barrel. BLU-113A/B and (to the best of my knowledge) all BLU-122 variants are new-build, not from artillery barrels. AFAIK, somewhere between 100 and 125 BLU-113/B warheads were built before they switched over to the A/B.

Thought they were built using excess barrels that were originally meant for navy cruisers - but considering my recollection is based on news reports of the time (and we all know how accurate the news can be) I am probably off there

[Olefin]

FYI - an important consideration for V1 versus V2 versions of the game is the implementation of the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe

V1 has the Cold War continuing - so this treaty never occurs

V2 was published in 1990 and I dont think this treaty was part of it but I may be wrong

V2.2 as published in 1993 - and if it includes that treaty then you would have had a big draw down in vehicle stocks in Europe that would let countries like Mexico have a shot at armored vehicles, SPG's and other things that most likely they wouldnt have in V1

Example - Belgium kept ancient M44 SPG's in their emergency war stocks right up to the end of the Cold War and only finally disposed of them when the Treaty was signed along with M108's that had also been assigned to their war stocks - thus both vehicles are much more likely open to Mexico buying them in V2.2 than in V1

The invasion of the US by Mexico is in both versions - but all the canon material we have for that area (and if I am wrong please point it out) was V1 timing - but the Mexican Sourcebook was written in the V2.2 era - thus there is much more equipment available for a V2.2 game in terms of surplus from Europe versus in a V1 timeline

so the real question as to what the invasion force and the Mexican Army may have been is are we looking at a V1 timeline or a V2

[Olefin]

I would also like to say I can now officially see RN7's point about Belgium and the 500+ APC's that went to Mexico in real life - there is no way, if its V1 timeline, in any shape or form that they would have disposed of that many APC's - maybe some old decrepit ones sitting in their emergency war stocks - but 500 Nope.

Point officially acknowledged and agreed to.