YaATW2KT: The Second Mexican-American War

[RN7]

Per the canon they had T-72's (Red Star Lone Star) - but if I remember right the 49th wasnt an all M1 unit - again have to look at my US Army Vehicle Guide when I get home (unless you have one handy)

Both 1st and 2nd edition has the 49th armored division with five tank battalions (2 M1A1, 2 M1 and 1 M60A3). The orbat for 2000 has them with 1 M1A1, 8 M1, 4 M60A3, 7 Stingray and 3 LAV-75.

[RN7]

The school brigade would have had some ADATS (tracked and wheeled) and FOG-Ms correct

In open terrain they are not the most useful, but with some shoot and scoot even MBTs would need to think twice going against those.

From American Combat Vehicle Handbook

"With the outbreak of hostilities with Mexico in 1998, the brigade was activated as a troop unit, using its available mix of weapons to create unorthodox operational units. Infantry was drawn from basic training camps at Fort Bliss and attached to ADA gun batteries (PIVAD and Diana) to create heavy machinegun combat teams. Because the brigade had no organic field artillery, it relied heavily on infantry mortars and developed its own doctrine for employment of ADA gun systems in the indirect fire role.

The School Brigade was able to hold the Fort Bliss area against repeated attacks, but was soon surrounded. Fighting its way free of the encirclement, the brigade retreated north, evacuating its equipment, personnel, and dependents through New Mexico. Once across the Canadian River, the brigade linked up with elements of the XC U.S. Corps in Oklahoma. In January of 1999, the School Brigade was attached to 49th Armored Division, with which it has served since."

[kato13]

Have to look at my US Army Vehicle Guide when I get home - I think the ADATS but not sure on the FOG-M

It is actually in the 2nd ed Heavy Weapons Sourcebook. So it is not listed in unit assignments but it is US army weapon.

[Olefin]

Thank you for the information RN7!

One thing that the Soviets did have was helicopter gunships - they are mentioned in Red Star Lone Star (if I remember they didnt mention exact numbers or types but it was definitely plural as in more than one or two) - one of the prime reasons to get the refinery was that it could produce avgas -and put those grounded gunships back into the air

That could explain how the Soviets beat the 49th - i.e. they had gunships with anti-tank weapons and fuel to put them in the air - and the 49th may not have had any by the time helos of their own by the time they encountered the Soviets - which if I remember right was in 1999 sometime

definitely would make the T-72's more survivable if the 49th is getting their heads handed to them by gunships and is busy maneuvering to engage them or throw off the missiles and as a result allows the Soviet tankers to get into position to not take on the M1's frontally

thus possibly explaining how a single Soviet Motor Rifle Division stops a five battalion armored division cold

The Cubans has armed Mi-24 and Mi-8 gunships - those definitely could have tipped the odds for the Soviets if the US ones are grounded from lack of fuel

[kato13]

From American Combat Vehicle Handbook

"With the outbreak of hostilities with Mexico in 1998, the brigade was activated as a troop unit, using its available mix of weapons to create unorthodox operational units. Infantry was drawn from basic training camps at Fort Bliss and attached to ADA gun batteries (PIVAD and Diana) to create heavy machinegun combat teams. Because the brigade had no organic field artillery, it relied heavily on infantry mortars and developed its own doctrine for employment of ADA gun systems in the indirect fire role.

The School Brigade was able to hold the Fort Bliss area against repeated attacks, but was soon surrounded. Fighting its way free of the encirclement, the brigade retreated north, evacuating its equipment, personnel, and dependents through New Mexico. Once across the Canadian River, the brigade linked up with elements of the XC U.S. Corps in Oklahoma. In January of 1999, the School Brigade was attached to 49th Armored Division, with which it has served since."

The DIana battalions (will double check PIVAD) also had ADATS. 2ed also mentions 4 of the M1 based laser ADA system being at fort bliss.


Edit PIVAD equipped units had the Roland. so not useful as anti armor.

[Olefin]

Ok how many people think that this subject may be one of the most fascinating and challenging ones there is on the board as to coming up with a realistic OOB for the Mexican Army at the time of the invasion

I would vote yes for sure

[Raellus]

I don't think that you need tension between the U.S. and Mexico to justify a major arms purchase, even one including light tanks. And I don't think that the U.S. would be particularly troubled by the purchase of a few dozen, older, practically obsolete models. Yes, the U.S. might be upset that Mexico isn't buying American, but if the purchases take place after the Soviets invade China, the U.S. (gov't and arms corporations) would be too preoccupied with providing weapons to the Chinese to care.

I haven't heard much about its status lately, but in the '90s, Mexico was fighting an insurgency against a guerrilla group called the Zapatistas in its Chiapas state. Perhaps the arms buy was part of an attempt to quash this rebellion. Perhaps, Guatemala was believed to be aiding and abetting said rebels. Perhaps the Mexican government was trying to pick a fight with Guatemala in order to distract its own population from various domestic issues (poverty, corruption, etc.).

And tanks- especially light tanks- wouldn't necessarily make it that much easier for the Mexicans to overrun the School Brigade, for example. There are lots of historical examples of well-trained, experienced, well-led infantry, without its own armor, of holding off a force equipped with armor for a couple of days or three.

[dragoon500ly]

This is the problem with the AMX-13. Its not a tank, and it could be defeated by even a heavy machine gun.

Actually the AMX-13 is a perfect example of a light tank from the post WWII era.

When you consider a tank design, picture a triangle, one point is maneuverability, the second is firepower and the third point is protection.

The AMX-13 has excellent maneuverability and decent firepower, protection is poor. But it was designed for a reconnaissance role. When I was stationed in Germany, during the maneuvers that light tank could run rings around a M-60A1, and if it could get close enough it's cannon was a decent threat against flank armor. The turret also gives this tank an advantage, the cannon is mounted fairly high, and from the front it is a narrow design. This allows the AMX-13 to occupy a hull down position and reveal very little of its turret, coupled with good camouflage, makes the blasted thing very hard to detect.

It's ability to pour a burst of 3-6 rounds and then run away, does make it a threat.

But remember, it was designed for the European battlefield.

During the Six Day War, the IDF fielded three battalions of AMX-13s, due to the shortage of MBTs, they used the -13s as main battle tanks and they suffered heavy losses when used outside their designed role.

So the Mexican Army buying light tanks, very possible, equally possible is their suffering heavy losses, especially when going up against TOW/Dragon/Tank Breaker/Hellfire. Toss in M-48A5/M-60A3/M-1, and you have a nasty little surprise for the Guard and Reserve units, but one that would be quickly worn away by battlefield and maintenance losses.

[dragoon500ly]

Yes, but it was a long, long time ago so I don't really remember any of the details.

If I remember correctly, didn't the author use a Nicaraguan armor brigade equipped with T-72s

[Raellus]

So the Mexican Army buying light tanks, very possible, equally possible is their suffering heavy losses, especially when going up against TOW/Dragon/Tank Breaker/Hellfire. Toss in M-48A5/M-60A3/M-1, and you heavy a nasty little surprise for the Guard and Reserve units, but one that would be quickly worn away by battlefield and maintenance losses.

This. Even early-model M72 LAWs and old recoilless-rifles just taken out of mothballs would be able to defeat any of the tanks we've mentioned so far, including the AMX-30 and TAM.

What these AFVs do is give the Mexicans increased firepower and mobility. Coupled with surprise, this upgraded Schwerpunkt explains the dramatic early success of the Mexican invasion, and goes a little way in explaining why the Mexicans still hold territory in the U.S. in 2000 and beyond.

[dragoon500ly]

This. Even early-model M72 LAWs and old recoilless-rifles just taken out of mothballs would be able to defeat any of the tanks we've mentioned so far, including the AMX-30 and TAM.

What these AFVs do is give the Mexicans increased firepower and mobility. Coupled with surprise, this upgraded Schwerpunkt explains the dramatic early success of the Mexican invasion, and goes a little way in explaining why the Mexicans still hold territory in the U.S. in 2000 and beyond.

Concur, by the time of the invasion, you would have the bottom of the barrel scraping to defend the U.S. southwest.

This is why I argue that the 49th Armored gets shipped to Europe, this leaves no significant armor force to cover the New Mexico, Arizona, Texas front until the 50th Armored gets shipped down from Ft Knox, Ft Drum to act as reinforcement, and since the 50th AD had so many problems with its training...now the Mexicans get a slim edge over the American armor.

[Olefin]

This. Even early-model M72 LAWs and old recoilless-rifles just taken out of mothballs would be able to defeat any of the tanks we've mentioned so far, including the AMX-30 and TAM.

What these AFVs do is give the Mexicans increased firepower and mobility. Coupled with surprise, this upgraded Schwerpunkt explains the dramatic early success of the Mexican invasion, and goes a little way in explaining why the Mexicans still hold territory in the U.S. in 2000 and beyond.

I would agree with you there Raellus - and keep in mind that the Germans broke thru the French in 1940 and achieved victory using tanks that in many ways were inferior to the ones the French had both in terms of quantity and quality.

And one big reason for the success may be who they are facing - i.e. a bunch of light infantry divisions converted from training divisions, military police units, a widely scattered National Guard infantry division that hadn't seen any fighting yet (i.e. the 46th), a rebuilt National Guard division that was equipped with a grab bag of armor including Engineering tanks masquerading as the real thing (the rebuilt 40th minus one of its brigades) and a single National Guard tank division that wasnt there to face the initial attack (the 49th) and hadnt seen any combat yet

and most likely with very limited air support due to fuel shortages and lack of aircraft

probably the best units they initially faced were the School Brigade and the 177th (which isnt even in the canon) and they were heavily outnumbered

all of whom would be facing fuel and ammunition shortages and major communication and logistics issues from the effects of the nuclear attacks

i.e. in other words they didnt face the best the US had at the top of their game - if they had that invasion would have been stopped cold in its tracks

[Olefin]

One other factor that might have also lead to their success may have been the Americans underestimating them

I.e. that it was just the Mexican Army how hard can they be

Very hard to quantify that for us with what we are doing but if the writers took that approach you could see them figuring the US units would be too confident and approach a fight without really considering that the Mexican Army might be better equipped and motivated than they gave them credit

If you look at Trial by Fire (the book I mentioned earlier) the US units feel that way when they encounter Mexican units - and as a result take much heavier casualties than anyone expected

[StainlessSteelCynic]

On a side note, I've been trying to get better info on those Argentinian upgraded Shermans.
Even looking through Jane's for the relevant years there's not a lot of information but I do have the following for the powerpack that was used.

Paraphrasing from Jane's Armour and Artillery 1986-87, page 950

Poyaud 520 series engines developed to a requirement of the French army although weren't used by the French army. Based around a common cylinder of 135mm bore and 122mm stroke. The modular construction of the engines allowed them to be offered in many configurations for many different vehicles (including Soviet) chiefly naturally aspirated (NS suffix), turbo-charged (S1 suffix), turbo-charged with charge-air intercooling (S2), turbo-charged with oil-cooled pistons and intercooling (S25) and turbo-compounded using the "Hyperbar" process (S3).
All variants were apparently direct injection and water cooled.
It seems as though the engines could be supplied to a buyer in kit form for assembly at their point of destination.

The Argentinian upgraded Shermans were fitted with the 520 V8 S25, meaning they used the turbo-charged, oil-cooled piston, intercooler version. This developed 2500rpm at 570HP (420kW). It looks as though this engine was designed for US vehicles of the post-WW2 era e.g. M4 Medium, M36 and M41.

I haven't found anything to state these were petrol/gasoline or diesel except for the article I originally linked. I'm inclined to think diesel because they were all direct-injection but that's just a guess. I'm hoping someone with a better knowledge of engines than me (which pretty much means just about everybody!), can make a better assessment of that.
What all of that means for game stats I'll leave (again!), to people with a better understanding of engines.

I haven't found anything specific about the 105mm gun except for the article I linked that states it was a French gun. Given that the French had tested a 105mm on the AMX13, they certainly would have had the tech knowledge for designing one suitable for refitting to the Shermans.

[The Dark]

On a side note, I've been trying to get better info on those Argentinian upgraded Shermans.
Even looking through Jane's for the relevant years there's not a lot of information but I do have the following for the powerpack that was used.

Paraphrasing from Jane's Armour and Artillery 1986-87, page 950

Poyaud 520 series engines developed to a requirement of the French army although weren't used by the French army. Based around a common cylinder of 135mm bore and 122mm stroke. The modular construction of the engines allowed them to be offered in many configurations for many different vehicles (including Soviet) chiefly naturally aspirated (NS suffix), turbo-charged (S1 suffix), turbo-charged with charge-air intercooling (S2), turbo-charged with oil-cooled pistons and intercooling (S25) and turbo-compounded using the "Hyperbar" process (S3).
All variants were apparently direct injection and water cooled.
It seems as though the engines could be supplied to a buyer in kit form for assembly at their point of destination.

The Argentinian upgraded Shermans were fitted with the 520 V8 S25, meaning they used the turbo-charged, oil-cooled piston, intercooler version. This developed 2500rpm at 570HP (420kW). It looks as though this engine was designed for US vehicles of the post-WW2 era e.g. M4 Medium, M36 and M41.

I haven't found anything to state these were petrol/gasoline or diesel except for the article I originally linked. I'm inclined to think diesel because they were all direct-injection but that's just a guess. I'm hoping someone with a better knowledge of engines than me (which pretty much means just about everybody!), can make a better assessment of that.
What all of that means for game stats I'll leave (again!), to people with a better understanding of engines.

I haven't found anything specific about the 105mm gun except for the article I linked that states it was a French gun. Given that the French had tested a 105mm on the AMX13, they certainly would have had the tech knowledge for designing one suitable for refitting to the Shermans.

The Poyaud 520 is a V-8 diesel engine. The Sherman Repotenciado's gun was a license-built version of the 105mm from the AMX-13, the coax was a MAG-58, and the pintle MG an M2HB. Many of them were rebuilt Sherman Firefly, since England repaid some of its debt to Argentina by giving them Shermans at scrap metal cost. To make room for the gun upgrade and increased shell size, it had no radio operator (not a big deal with modern radios) and no loader (big deal, since it didn't have an autoloader). It's not really relevant to this discussion, but a lot of the Shermans in Saving Private Ryan were Repotenciadoes.

Paraguay is (or was, as of 2015) still using three of them as ceremonial vehicles for the Presidential Escort Regiment. The three in use are SN 15919 (built by Baldwin in September 1943), SN 40351 (built by ALCO in November 1943), and SN 6057 (built by Chrysler in November 1942).

There were also Chilean Shermans (which Paul has listed under the Israeli tanks, since they're modified Israeli Shermans). They bought Israeli M-50 and M-51 Shermans and re-engined them with Detroit Diesel 8V71T engines. The M-51 (105mm) was kept with its existing armament, but the M-50 (75mm) was re-armed with IMI's 60mm HVMS cannon (which was also used in Chilean Chaffee tanks).