Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[swaghauler]

Experimental Assault Rifles in The Twilight War

This is one of those areas where I significantly disagree with the cannon as well (remember that I use v2.2 Cannon here). The German Army was very conservative and wouldn't adopt a rifle that did not "pass muster."
The G11 program was dropped after only 1000 rifles were procured because of "teething problems" with the rifles (they couldn't get through two magazines without jamming) and issues with the ammo (the "powder charge" would "flake off" with rough handling and there were numerous "failures to fire"). this would have kept the G11 out of the field for general issue. Assuming that H&K could have solved the ammo issues would still mean that there were only enough rifles in existence for GSG-9 type units. Ironically, it would be FN that would solve the G11 reliability issue with the P90. All it took was using cased ammunition that wasn't so easily damaged. There was really nothing wrong with H&K's design of the G11's vertically rotating breech block. It was all in the ammo.

The G-36 would begin issue in 1996 and 2000 were submitted for extended testing with approval for adoption by 1997. This would allow around another 4000 or 5000 rifles to come into existence before the interruption of production. This rifle could be in the hands of airborne troops or other special units. The rest of the German army would still be using G3's or pressing G41A1s into service (the G41 variant that was modified AFTER losing the German trials but never produced in large numbers).

Another rifle with issues is the AN-94. This rifle has a VERY POOR reliability record. The Soviets gave about 2000 to several Spetznaz and Marine units for testing. They continue to use it but it is an incredibly complex design that is still unreliable in use. Larry Vicker's Youtube video on the An-94 (where a jam took THREE MEN with a toolkit to clear it) is normal for that rifle. I doubt the Russians would have continued extended development during the war.
The AEK-971 shows a lot of promise but with limited production, no more than a few thousand would be able to reach the field before production was interrupted.
My last "nitpick" with Twilight2000 is the idea of the AKMr (rechamber). I do NOT ALLOW this rifle in my game because there is NO REASON for it to exist.
This is simply another case where the Devs weren't well educated with small arms development (and there's no shame in that). The cost of replacing the Bolt, Bolt carrier, Trunnion, sights, and the barrel is more than 80% of the cost of a new rifle. Additionally, when you're done, you STILL HAVE A RIFLE WITH USED PARTS ON IT! It is much more economical to sell TWO OLDER AKMs and use that money to build ONE NEW AK-74 than to convert 7.62mm rifles to 5.45mm.

[Raellus]

I've read several recent articles citing reliability and fragility issues with the G36. Heck, if the Kurdish Peshmerga are complaining about free German assault rifles, you know that something's probably wrong.

Swag, it look like our thinking is more or less in line, despite the fact that we each embrace different timelines.

Here's how I see things playing out in v1.0.

The G11 is adopted in the late-'80s and enters initial, small-batch production in the early '90s. It is issued first to special forces and airborne troops who immediately report reliability problems & issues with the caseless ammunition. The gov't decides that revamping an already expensive project this will make the G11 too pricey for general issue- there's also continuing NATO opposition to the caseless ammo- and directs HK to develop a more conventional G3 replacement that fires standard 5.56mm NATO ammunition. The G36 is developed in the mid-'90s and initial production begins. This would be around 1996, v1.0 timeline.

However, at this point, the W. German gov't is already in the advanced planning stages for reunification-by-force, and instructs H&K to cancel G36 production and switch instead to full-scale G33 and G32 production. This will allow the unified army to issue similar weapons that can be fed by existing stockpiles of ammunition. This new initiative preempts development of the G36.

So, once the war kicks off, you'd see German units carrying a mixture of weaponry.

Special Forces and airborne troops would start the war using a mixture of G11, G36, and G3s. Later on, they'd probably be using more G33s and G32s due to better reliability and parts/ammo availability.

First line, W. German Panzergrenadier and light infantry would be issued fresh G33s and newer-make G3s.

First line, former-E. German units would be equipped mostly with fresh G32s 7.62x39mm and perhaps a 5.45mm version as well (G34 designation).

Reserve W. German units would be equipped with a hodgepodge, mostly older G3s and a few newer G33s at first.

Reserve E. German units would keep their MPiKs (E. German AKM & AK-74 clones) and eventually start receiving G32s.

[RN7]

From my version (V1.0) of German forces for Twilight 2000.

Before the war the main service rifle of the West German Bundesheer was the Heckler & Koch G41 assault rifle, capable of full automatic fire or three round burst. The G41 was an upgraded version of the older Heckler & Koch HK-33 assault rifle and was intended as an interim design until the introduction of the new G11 assault rifle.

The Heckler & Koch G11 uses caseless ammunition and is capable of full automatic fire or three round bursts and can carry two spare magazines positioned parallel to the magazine in use. However difficulties in mass producing caseless ammunition due to other priorities before and during the war led to only limited production of the rifle, and the G11 was only issued to selected units such as the Fallschirmjager and Fernspah special forces.

Territorial forces continued to use the venerable Heckler & Koch G3 battle rifle that had been the main service rifle of the Bundesheer for decades. The G3 uses the 7.62mm NATO round as opposed to the lighter 5.56mm NATO round of the G41, and German troops preferred the stopping power of the G3.

When it was obvious that the G11 was becoming too complicated to produce Heckler & Koch developed the G36 assault rifle as an alternative replacement. The G36A1 rifle uses the same 5.56mm NATO round as the G41, but it is a more capable weapon with superior range. It went into production in 1996 and was issued to frontline German infantry until the nuclear detonations. All German rifles (G3, G36 and G41) can mount the HK-79 and M203 under barrel grenade launchers.

German Federal Border Guards used the G8A1 rifle, which was an automatic rifle variant of the Heckler & Koch HK21 light machine gun featuring a bipod, selective fire option and telescopic scope. Federal Border Guards and other police forces also used the Belgian FN FAL and Swiss SIG SG 550 battle rifles.

German officers, military police (Feldjager) and airborne forces were issued with sub-machine guns. The standard sub-machine gun of German forces was the Heckler & Koch MP5 (A2/A4/A5), with Territorial forces using the Israeli Uzi. German Special forces also used the Heckler & Koch MP5K and MP-5SD, or more rarely the Belgian FN P90. Naval forces and military police also used the Walther MPK and MPL.

The standard German sidearm was the Heckler & Koch P7 and USP pistol, with Territorial forces using the Walther P1/P38 pistol. German special forces used the Heckler & Koch P9 and Mark 23 pistol, and police forces using a variety of pistols and revolvers.

German forces also used the Heckler & Koch PSG1 and MSG90 sniper rifles, and the Remington Model 870 shotgun. German special forces used a range of sniper rifles including the AMP DSR-1, Remington M24 and British Accuracy International AWM-F sniper rifles. They also used Barrett M82 and Accuracy International AW-50 anti-material rifles. German police forces used the Heckler & Koch G8A1 with telescopic scopes and the Mauser 86SR, or more rarely the Blaser R93 and Walther WA 2000 sniper rifles.

German forces used DM51 concussion/fragmentation grenade and the DM24 incendiary/smoke grenade. Both grenades were made by German arms company Diehl, and incorporated a detachable fragmentation sleeve which allowed it to be used defensively or offensively without a sleeve. The DM24 grenade also differs from most other incendiary grenades as it is filled with red phosphorous rather than white phosphorous, making it considerably safer to use.

German Special forces also used the prototype INKAS integrated night-fighting system that was being developed for German forces before the start of the war. INKAS consists of a rifle-mounted infrared laser projector and image-intensifying goggles. The laser can be fitted to most German assault rifles and Heckler & Koch sub-machine guns directly in front of the fore-sight, and its beam is invisible except with IR-goggles or similar night-vision devices. INKAS allows for effective night combat efficiency, with the laser considerably enhancing-hit probability through its simple point-and-shoot system. Only special forces and selected Fallschirmjager units were equipped with INKAS.

East German forces used Warsaw Pact weapons. The standard assault rifle of the NVA was the Kalashnikov AK-74N that used 5.45mm Kalashnikov round, and was built under license by Sauer & Sohn in East Germany. Second line forces and security troops were issued with Kalashnikov AK-47 and AKM assault rifles that fired the larger but less accurate 7.62mm Kalashnikov round. The Kamphfgruppen der Arbeiterklasse militia used the AK-47 and the obsolete SKS semi-automatic carbine. The standard East German sidearm was the Makarov PM pistol. East German border troops, airborne forces and the Stasi were also issued with Soviet AKS-74U automatic carbines, Czech Omnipol VZ-61 Skorpion and Polish Lucznik PM-63 RAK sub-machine guns. East German sniper rifles included the Soviet SVD Dragunov and the East German made SSG-82 which was only used by the Stasi. East German used Soviet hand grenades such as the F1, RGD-33 and RGO fragmentation grenades.

After German Reunification West German units continued to use weapons chambered for NATO cartridges, while former East German forces used Soviet weapons for the same reason. As the war progressed German forces began to use whatever weapons were available, and in the later stages of the war even used Second World War era bolt action rifles such as the Soviet Mosin-Nagant M-1891 and former Wehrmacht Karabiner 98K's.

Civilian hunting rifles have also been increasingly used by militia forces. To add to the variety of firearms used by the Germans in the Twilight War many Austrian Army and US Army weapons also found their way into use. Austrian forces came under German control after 1997, and Austrian units use their own weapons including the Steyr AUG assault rifle and Steyr MPi 69 and TMP sub-machine guns. US firearms have also been distributed to German forces including Colt M16A2 assault rifles, Ingram MAC-10 sub-machine guns and other weapons. Five years of warfare against Warsaw Pact armies in Central Europe, the Italians in Austria, and the French and Belgian armies in the Rhineland has also led to the recovery of large stocks of captured firearms. In 2001 it is quite possible for individual German units to be using weapons from over half a dozen sources that are chambered to use NATO, Kalashnikov or other types of cartridges.

[swaghauler]

German Police Pistols

The German Polizei used several different 9mmP pistols during the Twilight War. The following pistols were generally issued:

Walther P1-Basically an "improved copy" of the Walther P38 with an open slide, slide mounted decocking safety, 8 shot capacity and heel magazine release.

Walther P5- an "improved" P1 with an enclosed slide, 8 shot magazine and frame mounted decocker only. Originally equipped with a heel mag release, later models featured an "American mag release" behind the decocking lever.

SIG P225/P6- An 8 shot, 7.8" long compact pistol with a frame mounted decocker and an "American magazine release." This was simply a "chopped" P220.

H&K P7 "Squeeze Cocker"/P7- H&K's revolutionary "squeeze cocking" grip that not only rendered the pistol safe when released but also acted as the "slide release" when reloading. 8 shot capacity with heel release on original models and an "ambidextrous" dual paddle release behind the trigger guard on later European and American pistols.

H&K USP 9/P8- H&K's polymer high capacity 15 shot 9mmP with frame mounted decocker and safety combined. The magazine release is an ambidextrous dual lever behind the trigger guard. Night Sights are standard.

SIG P228/P9- SIG's 13 shot double column 9mmP with frame mounted decocker and "American" style button magazine release. Night Sights are standard.

While I found some reference to GSG-9 and certain other "SWAT" teams using the .45; all of them referenced either the 8 shot P220 (with heel release AND "American" release) or the USP-45 Tactical 12 shot .45; I can find NO mention of German Polizei ever using the H&K Mark 23....

[.45cultist]

I can't recall where I read it, but I did see an article a few months ago that suggested that the UK still had a stockpile of SLR's which ran into the tens of thousands, so I think it's highly likely that the SLR would be the most commonly found weapon amongst British forces either though neccessity or choice. I also like the idea of reissuing Brens, and would probably add to that the possibility of very occasionally encountering militia and Home Service Force units in the UK armed with .303 Lee Enfields. There's also likely to be a number of MP5's in circulation as that was the standard issue long arm of most British police forces (at least on the mainland).

One minor thing - whilst I agree with most of what you've said here (including the reissue of the Bren gun), IRL Sterling Armaments went bust in the late 80's, so wouldn't be in any position to start remanufacturing the AR18.

(Of course, that doesn't mean that they have to go bust in a T2K World...)

On a side note, finding ways for marauder groups in the UK to be armed is a source of constant headaches for me...there are only so many dodgy French weapons dealers or abandoned HSF caches...I do sometimes envy those whose work is set in the US where it seems (to me at least) that both lawful and unlawful groups have relatively easy access to large amounts of weapons.

Interesting views on the G11 / G36 debate also. I've always been a fan of the G36, but as I use a Version 1 timeline following the logic here I think I may have to dump it in favour of the G11.

You could always use a Chinese freighter and the Irish insurgents to supply weapons, one accidently, the other to keep its enemy busy.

[RN7]

While I found some reference to GSG-9 and certain other "SWAT" teams using the .45; all of them referenced either the 8 shot P220 (with heel release AND "American" release) or the USP-45 Tactical 12 shot .45; I can find NO mention of German Polizei ever using the H&K Mark 23....

German police and SWAT (Sondereinsatzkommando) units were never issued with the H&K Mark 23. But GSG9 which is part of the German Federal Border Guards were issued with some H&K Mark 23's in the 90's. There is not very much information about who used the H&K Mark 23 other than the usual sources which states that the US Special Forces and a few others used the pistol. However the German military especially the Kampfschwimmer which are the German equivalent to the US Navy Seals almost certainly tested and used the H&K Mark 23. German special forces units were all rebranded as the KSK in 1996 and the Germans now use the similar H&K USP P12, but they still may have a few Mark 23 knocking about.

[.45cultist]

For Britain, the Pattern Room inventory was to be moved to several more secure storage facilities but a couple of convoys never made it due to the bombs. It could even play out like the gold convoy in "Armies of the Night", which would add a cadre of modern police or military gear. An Armed Response van would be a good start for a small band. A cottage factory is making Stens for sale.

[swaghauler]

German police and SWAT (Sondereinsatzkommando) units were never issued with the H&K Mark 23. But GSG9 which is part of the German Federal Border Guards were issued with some H&K Mark 23's in the 90's. There is not very much information about who used the H&K Mark 23 other than the usual sources which states that the US Special Forces and a few others used the pistol. However the German military especially the Kampfschwimmer which are the German equivalent to the US Navy Seals almost certainly tested and used the H&K Mark 23. German special forces units were all rebranded as the KSK in 1996 and the Germans now use the similar H&K USP P12, but they still may have a few Mark 23 knocking about.

Thanks for the insight. This is definitely one of those "grey areas" where hard info is difficult to come by. While I have a great deal of knowledge about the pistols I posted on because I have each and every one of them; I but don't know as much about their history of use (especially in Europe).

[swaghauler]

For Britain, the Pattern Room inventory was to be moved to several more secure storage facilities but a couple of convoys never made it due to the bombs. It could even play out like the gold convoy in "Armies of the Night", which would add a cadre of modern police or military gear. An Armed Response van would be a good start for a small band. A cottage factory is making Stens for sale.

This is an interesting Idea.

[.45cultist]

This is an interesting Idea.

Know a guy who got to tour it. There is a lot there covering several centuries. A GM could use it to add anything. Also remember the fire stations discovered a few years back they had 200 year old boarding axes.Bolt guns are common than one thinks, as are AR15's with uppers converted to manual pull. A smuggler need only bring FN uppers or parts to convert these back. And British citizens on both sides of the law will want weaponry.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I made a post in the "Odd Treasure Troves" thread about zoos/wildlife parks being a possible source of firearms. Many zoos around the world have firearms trained personnel to take care of any dangerous animals that escape and so on.
These places can provide a small quantity of civilian shotguns and rifles but most people don't associate zoos/wildlife parks with a cache of firearms.

This is the article from The Firearms Blog that I linked to in the other thread, it has much more detail than I've mentioned here.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/06/01/zoo-weapons-response-teams/utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheFirearmBlog+%28The+Firearm+Blog%29

[Targan]

I made a post in the "Odd Treasure Troves" thread about zoos/wildlife parks being a possible source of firearms. Many zoos around the world have firearms trained personnel to take care of any dangerous animals that escape and so on.
These places can provide a small quantity of civilian shotguns and rifles but most people don't associate zoos/wildlife parks with a cache of firearms.

True. It's a pity Harambe didn't have the chance to shoot back.

[LoneCollector1987]

Pershing missiles

Hello,

as a former member of the FKG 2 I would be much interested in what the future of the FKG 1 and 2 would have been.

Both units were equipped with 36 Pershing 1A missiles each and were deactivated in 1991.
The nuclear warheads were under the control of a US unit, in the case of the FKG 2 it was the US Army 85th Field Artillery Detachment.

But what about the Twilight timelines

Would something like the SLEP (Service Life Extension Programm) for aircraftcarriers happened to those missiles

Would they have been replaced by a more modern missile or would those units turned into artillery units with 155mm guns

I once started to write a sourcebook myself, but WRITERSBLOCK (and I dont know how to beat it) but in my timeline the missiles were replaced by the fictional Pershing III missile (range and payload nearly identical) that was a downsized version of the Pershing 2.

[swaghauler]

Hello,

as a former member of the FKG 2 I would be much interested in what the future of the FKG 1 and 2 would have been.

Both units were equipped with 36 Pershing 1A missiles each and were deactivated in 1991.
The nuclear warheads were under the control of a US unit, in the case of the FKG 2 it was the US Army 85th Field Artillery Detachment.

But what about the Twilight timelines

Would something like the SLEP (Service Life Extension Programm) for aircraftcarriers happened to those missiles

Would they have been replaced by a more modern missile or would those units turned into artillery units with 155mm guns

I once started to write a sourcebook myself, but WRITERSBLOCK (and I dont know how to beat it) but in my timeline the missiles were replaced by the fictional Pershing III missile (range and payload nearly identical) that was a downsized version of the Pershing 2.

I use the V2.2 Timeline and they were replaced in my timeline (like they were in reality) with generation 2 thermobaric devices. Why risk the dangers of fallout when you can have all the benefits of a tac nuke without the drawbacks Many of the Tac Nukes were more than 20 years old (the warheads) and nearing the end of their service lives anyway. It really wouldn't take much to retrofit a Pershing with a thermobaric warhead.

[RN7]

in my timeline the missiles were replaced by the fictional Pershing III missile (range and payload nearly identical) that was a downsized version of the Pershing 2.

I think that missile was the Pershing 1B. The actual Pershing III was a proposed missile to replace the LGM-118 Peacekeeper (MX) ICBM. There is also now a proposal to develop a coastal based Pershing III that could be used to counter the Chinese DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile. It would be deployed supposedly in Japan and South Korea by the US Army.