Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[Rainbow Six]

I don't have a v1 timeline handy in front of me right now but in the canon v1 timeline were British troops involved in any great numbers in a major conflict during the late 1980s/ early to mid 1990s If so perhaps that is where British forces were able to do their 'significant combat "test"'.

Like you I don't have a v1 timeline in front of me but I can't recall any such conflict being listed in either the initial box set or the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom.

[perardua]

Having just dug out my T2K CD and checked the Survivor's Guide to the UK, the earliest mention of any military operations that could provide a testing ground for the L85 was the 1995 deployment of troops to Oman to fight guerillas there, along with the sale of equipment to the Sultan's military. That might at least provide a recognition of a need for an upgrade programme on the very doorstep of the war.

[HorseSoldier]

The version 1.0 timeline doesn't really provide any details about pre-1995 military operations, but does make references to various brushfire wars and such. Hypothetically the UK could have been involved in one. Or they might have seen the light without a war to suggest that something along the lines of the L85A2 was needed (though I suspect HK wouldn't get the nod, as I don't think the UK would let their domestic small arms industry flush completely down the toilet with the cold war still kicking).

Most likely, the L85 sucks and the SLRs get pulled in volume. If the problem is bad enough they might even place emergency orders for M16s from the US or Canada.

No L85A2 upgrade for HK probably means no G36 in the mix. If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s, while the Osties will be going into action with their MPiK-74s for the active duty guys and probably AKMs for their reserves. (German logistics during the war must have been giving staff officers strokes even before the nukes.)

The US love affair with the M4 probably never really gets going, and the various marks of the M16 predominate for most people outside of SOF units. No post-Cold War demobilization and US support for the Baltic republics, however, does probably mean that last ditch US reservists and militia get issued M14s alongside the M16EZ kits.

The Czechoslovaks most likely field the LADA or some other sort of 5.45mm rifle to keep commonality with the mainstream Warsaw Pact (personally I'd like to see a 5.45mm version of the vz.58, but that doesn't look like the way they were going).

For everybody, the war between China and the USSR makes the world seem a more dangerous place, and programs to upgrade equipment might get pushed harder. The HK416 seems unlikely, but some of the smaller European nations currently using Diemaco/Colt Canada rifles as replacements for G3s could happen. With rush procurement programs, there'd likely be a lot of the old kit left over even before people start scraping the bottom of the barrel later in the war.

[Raellus]

No L85A2 upgrade for HK probably means no G36 in the mix. If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s, while the Osties will be going into action with their MPiK-74s for the active duty guys and probably AKMs for their reserves. (German logistics during the war must have been giving staff officers strokes even before the nukes.)

The Czechoslovaks most likely field the LADA or some other sort of 5.45mm rifle to keep commonality with the mainstream Warsaw Pact (personally I'd like to see a 5.45mm version of the vz.58, but that doesn't look like the way they were going).

Thanks. I hadn't come across references to he MPiK-74 or the LADA before. Nice. With Romania, Poland, and Bulgaria switching to AK-74 clones, and with around five to seven years of full scale production of these weapons (prior to the TDM in late '97), 5.45mm ammo would be more common, and 7.62mm S less so, on the front lines in Europe.

Based on what I've read, I think Germany would more likely ramp up production of the 5.56mm G41 instead of the G33. There's not much of a difference, as far as I can tell.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s...

The G41 would likely have been chosen before the HK33 as it was inline with the G11 for re-equipping rear echelon units that wouldn't need the G11. So you'd probably see front line troops with the G11 (and then whatever they got to replace it when ammo became scarce), rear area troops with the G41, Reservists with the G3 and Uzi then whatever police and ad hoc units they could make equipping with the leftovers including MP5s, the HK33 and HK53


Now that I read the rest of Raellus' post, from what I recall the G41 had a bolt hold-open device, dust cover on the ejection port and a magazine well for STANAG mags but otherwise was an updated HK33 design

[HorseSoldier]

Thanks. I hadn't come across references to he MPiK-74 or the LADA before. Nice. With Romania, Poland, and Bulgaria switching to AK-74 clones, and with around five to seven years of full scale production of these weapons (prior to the TDM in late '97), 5.45mm ammo would be more common, and 7.62mm S less so, on the front lines in Europe.

The East Germans did a pretty nice AK, if the 74s I got to do fam fire and training with are any indication. (The Bulgarian 5.45 ammo was less nice -- after several mags of one lot a bunch of us started feeling like exposed skin was burning -- I've probably got cancer care of Eastern European quality control or something . . .)



I've never seen a LADA outside of pictures, but the SGM at my last unit went through the SGM Academy with a bunch of senior NCOs from former Warsaw Pact nations and the word of mouth among them seemed to be the it set a new standard for AK type weapons. Judging from the pictures, it does seem to fix some of the ergonomics on the AK.

I agree that 5.45x39 would be the primary round used by most of the Warsaw Pact forces when the war in Europe kicks off. By the time the Cat C reserves get mobilized, vintage AKs might be as common. I don't think the AKMR idea GDW had would really pan out -- AKM to AK-74 conversion would require surgery to the receiver, a new barrel, new gas tube, new bolt, etc. By the time you've done all that, it can't be much cheaper than just building a new AK-74.

Based on what I've read, I think Germany would more likely ramp up production of the 5.56mm G41 instead of the G33. There's not much of a difference, as far as I can tell.

I was thinking the G41 was just the German military G# for the HK33, but Wikipedia has corrected my errors. I'd agree that the G41 would be the go to gun, though the idea of the Germans fielding a weapon using a STANAG 5.56mm magazine seems so exotic and weird it will take me a couple days to wrap my head around it .

[waiting4something]

I can't see the Germans or West Germans depending on whatever version of the story you go by, having many G11's if any issued at all. Germany is the front lines along with Poland, so their factories and labs would have got mauled by Warsaw Pact forces right off the bat. With no German Air Force the sky's would have been wide open for Warsaw Pact bombers.
The G11 was teseted more then a lot of other experimental weapons, but it had begun back in the 1970's and still was only being looked at. When the wall came down, they said their was no need for such a weapon and the project was just thrown out like that. Not much later the Germans went ahead and bought new G36's though. I believe they where never that sold on the G11 or really all the serious about bringing it into production. It was just a showboat piece. I have never seen one outside of pictures or a museum and it was made in my lifetime and was supposed to be a standard rifle for a whole army. I guessing no one else has ever seen one either.
Lots of guns are put out there as being the gun that is gonna replace this and that but it never happens. If they are super exotic that seems to be a good give away it won't happen.

[waiting4something]

Another gun that I can't see being in the twilight war was the ever so popular HK CAW. Germany has never been big on shotguns period. So they are gonna jump from having no shotgun standard to this super shotgun that can fire special flechette rounds effectively out to like 150-200 meters. Shotgun magazines are bulky as hell, because the ammo it holds is also. This limits the amount of ammo you can haul around. So the thought of a soldier with maybe 6-7 10 round magazines rapidly blasting away with it seems not very likely outside law enforcement or elite units. This was another gun that was tested, but do to the ending of the cold war the (CAW) program just went away. If it was that great the U.S. military, who is a big user on shotguns would have gone ahead and grabbed this baby up. It was just another show boat piece just like the OICW. All hype with no intention of really taking off.
If I played the game, the only way I would let a PC or NPC have such weapons would be if they where a person directly involved with it like a civilian lab tech/engineer or a military dude that gets to play with/test futureless weapons.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The HK CAWS wasn't designed for the West Germans and they never intended adopting it. It was designed for the US Army under the Close Assault Weapon System program of the 1980s.
As for the G11, it most definitely was wanted by the West Germans. It was seen as a system needed to counter the Warsaw Pact's numerical superiority in manpower and was the result of studies conducted to find a system that offered a higher probability of first round hit than the then current generation of weapons. As mentioned previously, the G11 was to go to first line units while the G41 was to go to second line units.
There are two significant reasons for why it was stopped. The first being the reunification of the two Germanys (and subsequent end of the Cold War) and the fact that some of the people in other nations were survivors of World War 2 and were seen by the Germans as being potentially worried about Germany being whole again and then developing Wunderwaffe

[waiting4something]

The HK CAWS wasn't designed for the West Germans and they never intended adopting it. It was designed for the US Army under the Close Assault Weapon System program of the 1980s.
As for the G11, it most definitely was wanted by the West Germans. It was seen as a system needed to counter the Warsaw Pact's numerical superiority in manpower and was the result of studies conducted to find a system that offered a higher probability of first round hit than the then current generation of weapons. As mentioned previously, the G11 was to go to first line units while the G41 was to go to second line units.
There are two significant reasons for why it was stopped. The first being the reunification of the two Germanys (and subsequent end of the Cold War) and the fact that some of the people in other nations were survivors of World War 2 and were seen by the Germans as being potentially worried about Germany being whole again and then developing Wunderwaffe

Yes, the CAW was being looked at for the U.S.A., in the game it was used by the Germans too. That's why I mentioned the German factor. I'm still not convinced however the Germans where that serious about the G11. They had a long time to get that thing going and they buried it and went with a G36 later. The U.S.A. was dicking around with the G11 a little too, but never shined to it. We also where looking at a gun made by Colt that was similar to the M16 but fired duplex rounds. The thing is if they really wanted it bugs and all, the Germans would have atleast had a few in there miltary like the the Russians have the AN-94. Hey, whatever happen to the AN-94 anyway It was supposed to replace the AK series, but from best I know very few ever filtered in.
I think your right the Germans on paper ideally planned for what you said, but however behind close doors they had other plans. This is just theory by me of course so take it with a grain a salt.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It wasn't so much a case of the Germans burying the G11 and then going for the G36 later, the G36 was a direct result of the Germans not taking the G11 & G41 into service and being stuck with a 7.62mmN rifle when everyone else was going to 5.56mm.
The development of the rifle was delayed not so much because the rifle presented problems but the ammunition did. HK didn't develop the ammo, Dynamit Nobel did and the caseless design went through many iterations before they came up with a round that would not cook off, they settled on a watered down rocket propellant from what I recall.
This page from HKPro has more info

http://www.hkpro.com/index.phpoption=com_content&view=article&id=23:the-g11-caseless-military-rifle&catid=11:rare-prototypes&Itemid=5

While HKPro has a lot of information, they fail to mention that Mauser was also developing their own entry for the G11 rifle and caseless rounds. I think they pulled out early on because they couldn't sort out ammunition problems. Rheinmetall were also developing a non-traditional ammunition in the 9/4mm Kaltmann which saw the plastic case get ejected out of the barrel while the primer and base were consumed during the normal combustion process

Some sources claim 1000 rifles were produced but more conservative estimates place the number at just 100
It should be remembered that HK were financially screwed by the cancellation of the G11/G41 deal, leading the way for Royal Ordnance of the UK to buy the company. HK's survival depended on the G11, I can't imagine that they would put themselves into such a situation if the plans were to never adopt the G11 in the first place. Apparently in an effort to make some money HK tried selling the G41 but it was considered too expensive by most potential buyers. Getting the contract to update the L85A1 to the A2 model basically saved their arse from being broken up and sold off.

As for the AN94, the Russians did get some but budget problems caused a major cutback in purchasing. Instead of all the AK74s being replaced, the AN94 was taken into service only by certain elite units

[waiting4something]

Yes, I remember something about the G11 ammo being a major probelm, which is another reason I find it hard to believe that this weapon would have been fielded. It wouldn't be a good idea at the height of the cold war to try to produce a ammunition that only one or two company's made. It's not a great idea that both those company's are in Germany eithier, which could have red tanks pulling up in the parking lot in a short amount of time.
But, still why do all that research and development to just throw something away Why not sell your product to law enforcement HK just does dumb shit sometimes. They tend to snub the civil American market, which doesn't make sense eithier. I think they just have a history of bad marketing. HK may have thought they were going sell their gun, but that doesn't mean the military really thought they where gonna buy it.
As for the G41 if it was that much more then the G36, I could buy that. Again though why not sell it to the civilian market Their are enough HK fans out there that will pay unreal prices for there stuff, but the company fails to see or really care.
Sometimes people have great hopes of selling their gear and shit falls though. The same thing happened with the Thompson submachine gun. Thompson thought he had a winner.But, it was deemed to expensive and really didn't get any major sales until WW2.

[pmulcahy11b]

Yes, I remember something about the G11 ammo being a major probelm, which is another reason I find it hard to believe that this weapon would have been fielded. It wouldn't be a good idea at the height of the cold war to try to produce a ammunition that only one or two company's made. It's not a great idea that both those company's are in Germany eithier, which could have red tanks pulling up in the parking lot in a short amount of time.
But, still why do all that research and development to just throw something away Why not sell your product to law enforcement HK just does dumb shit sometimes. They tend to snub the civil American market, which doesn't make sense eithier. I think they just have a history of bad marketing. HK may have thought they were going sell their gun, but that doesn't mean the military really thought they where gonna buy it.

Your first point is the same one I was trying to make towards the beginning of this thread, about why I don't think the G-11 would have been fielded even in the T2K timeline. The ammo's the problem, and there's just too much 5.56mm NATO and 7.62mm NATO ammunition already on hand to make adoption of a weapon with totally different ammunition worth it. It's the same strike that the US military had against the G-11 during the ACR competition. It's the primary obstacle against adoption of a cartridge like 6.8mm SPC or 6.5mm Grendel weapons for the US military now.

However, I think HK stuck with the development of the G-11 for as long as they did because...damnit, it is a good idea! It's a revolutionary weapon that promised to greatly reduce the weight of ammunition that a soldier would have to carry, as well as greatly reducing the amount of dirt that got into the mechanism of the weapon. It's a very compact rifle that has accuracy on par with most other designs of its time, and the 4.7mm Caseless round had damage potential almost on par with the 5.56mm NATO round while having better penetration. The damn thing even floats, from some descriptions I've heard! It was tested extensively by US and NATO special operations units (including, it is rumored, under combat conditions by US special ops units and the SAS), and they loved it. The shooters and armorers in the US ACR competition had a lot of praise for it. Getting past the adoption of radically-different ammunition and figuring out what to do with tens of millions of rounds of your old ammo is the problem!

[pmulcahy11b]

The same thing happened with the Thompson submachine gun. Thompson thought he had a winner.But, it was deemed to expensive and really didn't get any major sales until WW2.

Yes, even American gangsters didn't field the Thompson in anywhere the numbers that the movies would have you believe. Neither did the FBI or Treasury Service. The widespread use of the Thompson before World War 2 was largely a Hollywood invention.

[HorseSoldier]

The CAW seems like a really cool solution in search of a problem. Outside of RPGs and video games, the full auto shotgun just hasn't really caught on. It's not surgical and precise enough to appeal to many SOF types, it's not range effective enough to be a general service weapon, and really it's not much more effective (when you consider recoil) even at shotgun ranges than an assault rifle on auto.