The value of Precious Stones

[pmulcahy11b]

Another good use for a gold bar in T2K: bash someone over the head with it, and then steal their gun.

[Mohoender]

Another intersting property for gold is that it is higly malleable. You can make it into thread and use it as such. No need for machinery : A tool (from 15th century) used to make such thread was on display at Bayeux when I was kid and that was impressive.

As gold has a good conductivity, you might use it to repair your local electrical network.

[weswood]

I don't think steel will become more valuable. With all the useless machines- cars, trucks, heavy equipment- useless without sufficient fuel or power to run them, and damaged/destroyed buildings built with steel girders, steel would actually become cheaper. Someone who can work the steel without power tools, now thats a rarity.

I think gold, and other precious metals, and gems will be pretty much useless outside of surviving major cities. As its been said, you can't eat gold or diamonds.

I think small arms ammo will become more valuable than gold. Even with a .22 you can kill a rabbit and have a meal.

[headquarters]

steel doesnt keep

unless cared for all the time -the first years all metals might become cheaper as you said -but after a while all teh good bits will corrode and rust away .

true - a craftsman who works metal will be rich .The smith.

I don't think steel will become more valuable. With all the useless machines- cars, trucks, heavy equipment- useless without sufficient fuel or power to run them, and damaged/destroyed buildings built with steel girders, steel would actually become cheaper. Someone who can work the steel without power tools, now thats a rarity.

I think gold, and other precious metals, and gems will be pretty much useless outside of surviving major cities. As its been said, you can't eat gold or diamonds.

I think small arms ammo will become more valuable than gold. Even with a .22 you can kill a rabbit and have a meal.

[Grimace]

I think some of you guys are forgetting how long gold, silver and gemstones have had value. Long before there were computers or established, stable currency there were gold, silver and gemstones. They have intrinsic value because people like shiny metals and pretty rocks.

Do you think it really mattered to the Egyptians that they couldn't use gold for their weapons when they captured it and revelled over it What about the Sumerians What was their currency and how did that exchange with the currency that the Hittites used Basically it didn't matter what their currency was....he who had the most treasure had the most "wealth". He with the most "wealth" usually had a lot of followers and was therefore powerful.

Sure lead is going to be more worthwhile for fighting. Sure gasoline or oil is going to be more worthwhile for travel. But never underestimate the value of someone saying "five thousand bars of gold" and seeing how many people clamor over themselves to get to that gold, even if there's not a currency in place to say it's worth 7.6 million. With gold or silver, or even gemstones, you can CREATE your own currency and then such a thing immediately has value. If my cantonment says that in order to get fed you have to pay 1 silver piece of eight, and someone comes into my cantonment because there's food in there, they'll soon discover that silver is worth something. I don't have to say it's worth 20 dollars. I just need to say it's worth something. Want a box of ammo for your rifle Pay 2 gold medallions. *Whammo* Gold has worth now. Want to live in a house protected within a fortified cantonment It'll cost you 5 ounces of diamonds.

Sure you can try to take it by force, but unless you've got an endless supply of ammo to pull from, you might eventually find yourself needing some loot in the form of precious metals or precious stones.

So try not to think in terms of sheer usefulness. Think in terms of greed, power and vanity. Those things existed long, long before computers, catalytic converters, electricity or bullets.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

This is all true but only to a certain extent.
Precious metals and gemstones will only have value if a society believes they are valuable, (society being defined here as a more advanced organization than simply a community of like-minded souls banding together for survival).
But for that to happen, a society has to actually exist. Your historical example is flawed by the simple fact that those societies were not devastated by an apocalypse (to the point were all forms of government were reduced to mere shells)

Gemstones, platinum ingots and so on may be acceptable in the Free City of Krakow but for people outside of such an organized society, carrying around a few kilos of platinum in the hope that you can trade it at the next independent farm is a fruitless exercise because at the end of the day, the most important aspect of using such items is that there are people who can tell real from fake.

How many people do you know who can tell if a gold ingot is pure, how many do you know who can tell the difference between a raw platinum ingot and an aluminium ingot Who is going to underwrite the value of these items Money, gems, gold etc. are basically useless until a community has become organized enough to agree to their value, to agree that they are a suitable substitute for the goods that are being traded and has become skilled enough to recognize real from fake.
Within a cantonment it can work perfectly, within the territory of some warlord who controls everything in his domain it can work perfectly, between merchants it can work perfectly but outside of an organized community, it is nothing more than scrap paper, shiny metal and pretty stones.

[Legbreaker]

The answer to the original question is simple...

What's it worth to the person you're talking to that moment.

It all comes back to desire, supply, and demand.

[Mohoender]

I think some of you guys are forgetting how long gold, silver and gemstones have had value. Long before there were computers or established, stable currency there were gold, silver and gemstones. They have intrinsic value because people like shiny metals and pretty rocks.

You are right about that but this doesn't mean that it had any real value as an exchange product. What you describe is mainly true for small elites.

Gold and precious stones were displayed by rulers but in daily life it was very seldom used (Japan is about the few exceptions). It wasn't used in Europe for regular currencies, it wasn't used in China, it wasn't used in Africa...

The reason for that is not a problem of value but of it not being available in quantity. That would be the case again with T2K. The Markgraf of Silesia might value gold but the regular trader might not have any use for it. In addition, if a group controls a fair quantity of Gold, it might not be able to trade it but it will surely be targetted by everyone else.

Everyone has the image of Spanish ships coming back from South America full of Gold. However, this never occured for real and Gold was only marginal. The Galleons were coming back full of other more valuable goods: Silver, Chocolate...

Later the most valuable good was Rubber grown in the Manaus area. Steeling and exporting Rubber plant was punished by death penalty but despite that, a British finally stole several plants and brought them back to England and, then, India.

Gold gained a real trade value only in the late 19th century when governments became capable of assembling substantial reserve to back their paper currencies (that ended in 1950).

In T2K, a bag of potatoes or a box full of bullets might be much more valuable.

[copeab]

You are right about that but this doesn't mean that it had any real value as an exchange product. What you describe is mainly true for small elites.

One of the rules of economics is that a item used as currency ideally shouldn't be useful other than as currency (or decoration).

[headquarters]

Values

I guess we soon need a subforum that details all the supply issues

gold,coffee,reloading,fuel,farming...

Its just great to read all the different -and well founded -opinions here guys .
If I didnt know how to run this in my campaign -I would after reading these posts.

( I did know incidentally )

My two cents ( well,my other two ) :

Yes it will have value .In T2K almost everything will have value -even dirt thats been radiated . ( "We want ze poisoned dirt to zpread on ze enemy fields-how much iz it")

farfetched -yes.

So gold and silver -both useful and pretty metals in their way will have a value.

They can be made into a currency -as stated- in say a cantonment ,
they can be bartered for goods in a one on one meeting far from all cantonment

as long as the one party creates a demand for it -say he likes the way it glimmers in the pale ,post nuclear holocaust sun and or that his now dead wife used to have one just like it .

An irrational want for the item as opposed to a calculated motive based on a rational play for higher gain .

These are the theories of the rational /irrational operator in the economic system ( Weber I believe/Vienna school of sosiology - iirc ).

So both the agreed upon value in a community and the spur of the moment barter in the wasteland has merit .It can have a symbolic value as a "coin" -much like or currency bills in RL that have little real application once the agreed upon psychosis that they are "all that matters " lifts

( that would be after T2K like events )

Or gold rings can be worth their weight as fish hook sinks - easy to fix to the line , good density -and looks nice on your rig too.

A practical and a symbolic value .

Everyone will have to decide on the value depending on location and circumstance.

In our campaign gold has had various values .Gen PAin used to hoard huge amounts in teh now smouldering and radioactive crater that was his beloved Library Tower .He believed it would be worth alot--soon .But in that circumstance ,everybody were desperate ,half naked ,cannibalistic savages running around with melee weapons looking to eat thy neighbour. So gold was less valuable than fresh rat meat -or even spoiled rat meat .Later when his hoarding became known ,and the bounty he placed on gold was spread , gold got value and was sold to him for rations.

In the short lived PacGov republic ( corrupt,warmongering dictatorship that it was ) the players made currency in the form of plastic chits /coins after they had reached a certain level of organization.

But they also made gold coins when they started out since these were easier to make with their primitive technology at the time .It is mallable ,and recognized through habit by us as valuable .An agreed upon value ,but also a practical one as the need for a currency arose ,the medium to make one got intrinsic value etc etc .

I do believe in universal value - it will just vary from next to nothing to tremendous.

Sorry if I bored the c**p out of anybody with this .

[Mohoender]

One of the rules of economics is that a item used as currency ideally shouldn't be useful other than as currency (or decoration).

No doubt, no doubt... But after a subsequent use of these pretty and kind nuclear devices, economy is gone and so are its rules.

[Mohoender]

Sorry if I bored the c**p out of anybody with this .

Not at all, very interesting in fact. I might be wrong but the result of all this is that barter is going to be the general rule.

As a result, values for everything will vary greatly as you said. Basic of economics.

It's even a reality today. A year ago I fixed my neighbour's computer (48 hours works as he had the most virus I ever saw in a single computer) and in return he fixed my concrete floor (2 hours work for him). The deal was fair:
- He would have had to buy a new computer and I would have spent 48 hours anyway helping him with it.
- I would have spent more than 48 hours to realise the worse concrete floor you can imagine.
In the outcome, he has a working computer and I could open my office in a week, starting to make money.

[weswood]

I think the direction of the campaign in question would also have a lot to do with it. If the situation of the world is going back towards a regular governments etc, gold and gems would be more valuable than if civilization was spiraling downward.

I personally feel civilization would continue to decline. If 75% of the worlds population was killed, most of the people with the technical skills needed to recreate civilization would probably be dead.

[WallShadow]

testing the players' judgement

Present the PCs with a vault filled with gold or a storage locker filled with rare, useful, and functional but more mundane items, and they can choose only one compartment to empty before the bad guys come riding in for the attack.

Of course if they choose the gold, you could reveal to them that they missed out on all kinds of handy items they will probably never see again.

[Graebarde]

I got something on bronze - it doesnt rust .
Therefore gunbarrels etc were made of this for maritime use well into the 1800s .

With the end of cheap steal , longevity in products will be valued ,and maybe these materials will be used again .

Bronze does not rust in the sense you mean, but rust is oxidation, and bronze will oxidize.. turning green rather than red.