Korea: Summer 2000.

[kato13]

(moved from archive -kato13)

Dogger 02-03-2003, 03:05 PM I'm wondering if anyone has any detailed information on what the T2K situation in Korea was at about the time of the "Going Home" module


All my T2K material is Ver.1 and my games were/are set in the V.1 world.


The v.1 US Army Vehicle Guide lists the following for Korea in the summer of 2000:


8th US Army

II US Amphib Corps.

4th Marine Division: (23rd Regiment only) 400 men, 7 M60A4 tanks. *(USAVG says this Reg was returned to the US.)

5th Marine Division: 2000 men, 9 M60A4 tanks.

6th Marine Division: (16 Regiment only) 600 men, 4 M60A4 tanks.


II US Corps

7th Infantry Division: (Light) (1st Brigade only) 500 men, 0 tanks

26th Infantry Division: (Light) 5000 men, 3 LAV-75's

45th Infantry Division: 2000 men, 0 tanks.


VI US Corps

2nd Infantry Division: 2000 men, 4 M1 tanks.

25th Infantry Division: (Light) 600 men, 0 tanks.

41st Infantry Division: 2000 men, 0 tanks.

163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment: 600 men, 4 LAV-75's.


So what your looking at, (less 23/4th MarDiv) is a total US troop strength of 15,300 men, with 20 M60A tanks, 4 M1 Abrams, and 7 LAV-75's. Still a formidable force in the world of T2K but a force scattered and in poor shape I would bet.


The USAVG describes the 8th Army as taking quite a beating from tactical nuke strikes in the field. I'm basically wondering if anyone played out or planned a campaign in Korea that moved this situation forward (i.e. 8th Army resumes offensive operations into North Korea, or a "Going Home" scenario)


Comments/Ideas welcom.

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TR 02-03-2003, 05:45 PM I've always thought the deployments for South Korea a little on the skimpy side... there would have had to be more deployments to that area than accounted for. Of course this doesn't calculate Air Force and Naval unit either unfortunatly.


You would figure they would have to have pockets where the 8th was in control (along with the other units), you figure port areas and surrounding farm communities would be big on the list to be controlled.


I always wondered how troops in Korea would break down, i.e. going native vs staying in the rigid militry heiarchy... same for troops in Japan and other nations of course. That's not always accounted for in the game of course...



Until Later


TR

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Dogger 02-03-2003, 06:04 PM Originally posted by TR

I always wondered how troops in Korea would break down, i.e. going native vs staying in the rigid militry heiarchy... same for troops in Japan and other nations of course. That's not always accounted for in the game of course...


Some good points TR...


That brings up other issues as well, for instance, Japan would not be all that hard to reach from Pusan, S. Korea. A lot of troops might have attempted to make the crossing after things fell apart then stay in Korea...anyone remember what condition Japan was in by July 2000


Also, I wonder what other nations troops wouild have been deployed to Korea Australia would most likely have sent some SpecOps I would bet.

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TR 02-03-2003, 06:17 PM I would think Thailand and Singapore might contribute forces seeing how they are in the neighborhood they might be in trouble if South Korea fell.


Who knows...



TR

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Jason Weiser 02-03-2003, 09:29 PM Heh,

Well, there was quite a few theatres demanding troops at the time...but yeah, the deployments to Korea are skimpy. I was surprised no Aussies (Perhaps a Btn TF or two) and perhaps a force from Japan and or Canada

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Matt Wiser 02-04-2003, 01:18 AM The prewar OB for the area was 2 ID for the Army, 8th TFW at Kunsan AB, ROK with two F-16 squadrons, 51st TFW at Osan AB with one F-16 and one A-10 squadron for the AF, with 432nd TFW with two F-16 squadrons at Misawa AB in Japan, 18th Wing at Kadena AB on Okinawa with three F-15C squadrons and an E-3C AWACS squadron. 7th FLT would have USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63) with CVW-5 (VF-21, VF-154 with F-14D, VFA-146 and VFA-147 with F/A-18C, VA-115 with A-6F, VAW-115 with E-2C, VAQ-136 with EA-6B, VS-21 with S-3B, VQ-5 with ES-3A, and HS-12 with SH-60F/HH-60H. SAC had the 43rd BW on Guam with B-52G/KC-135.

3rd Marine Division and 1st MAW on Okinawa with MAW assets at MCAS Iwakuni in Japan, and MCAS Kanehoe, Hawaii.


See the old forum for USS Constellation battle group at Guam.

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pmulcahy 02-04-2003, 09:13 PM Originally posted by Dogger

Some good points TR...


That brings up other issues as well, for instance, Japan would not be all that hard to reach from Pusan, S. Korea. <snip>


It's not a long stretch of water, but it is by no means a quiet stretch, either. You wouldn't want to try it in a small boat; you would have as hard a time as a Cuban refugee headed to Florida. And in winter, it would be hard to not die of exposure in a small boat. My advice would be to get a ship, the larger, the better.

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Dogger 02-05-2003, 01:36 PM Matt,


Some great info there Thanx <S>.



Paul,


I agree about the waters between S.Korea and Japan, my thinking would be that departing units would have done so while there were still large enough ships operating to make the trip in a more or less save manner.


However, that thought makes me wonder about how far feched it might be to run into one of the few soviet attack subs still prowling the Sea of Japan

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[Legbreaker]

Having a little time on my hands at the moment I decided to take a look through the archives and found this.

My immediate thoughts were that the Korean War of the early 50's was never actually concluded - there was basically just a ceasefire. Also this was essentially a war between North Korea/China and the United Nations.
With that in mind, I'd be most surprised if we weren't to find all types of nationalities in the area (which would explain what some feel to be minimal US troop numbers). It's quite possible in my mind that many of the neutral countries in the war in Europe are involved here - France, South Africa, Chile, Brasil, Argentina, Japan, and so on. Who knows, you might even find a Swiss unit or two floating about!

[pmulcahy11b]

That's true, there's still just an Armistice -- the longest-lasting one in the world.

Late-1980s and early 1990s (T2K v1, I guess) short-term help would have come from the 25th ID in Hawaii, the 82nd Airborne, 7th ID in California, and later the 9th ID in Washington, as well as the Marines in Japan and Okinawa, and the Special Forces unit in Okinawa. Help from elsewhere at the time was dicey, but might have included the British, Australians, and New Zealanders; there was an outside chance for Singaporean and Japanese help (the latter very dicey -- the Japanese were really big on neutrality at the time and the ROKs still held a grudge against the Japanese for the treatment they got during World War 2). Air support would have come out of Japan, Okinawa, and the Philippines, and three carrier task forces might have shown up rather quickly, including battleships, which were still operational at the time.

In T2K, a lot of that help would not have been available, as they were deployed elsewhere. Korea would have become a forgotten corner of the war, with the troops there largely on their own. But balancing this, the Chinese in T2K would have stayed out of a PRK invasion of South Korea, and the Russians may also have decided they had too much to handle with a war in China and Europe and stayed out of it as well.

An untapped asset in T2K is South Korean guerrilla activity. In the late 1980s, there were some 18,000 Korean Vietnam vets in South Korea -- and South Korean forces were known to be especially vicious in Vietnam. One CSM I had in the Army said, "The ROKs would go into a village, and when they were done, nothing was left." These vets could become trainers for ROK guerrillas or even regular forces drafted into the Army.

[HorseSoldier]

With Japan being in something like France's position in the Pacific, I had the thought that they might be interested in arranging a Going Home scenario for US forces in Korea, though maybe with some strings attached. My personal thought was that they might recruit US forces to provide the muscle for a Japanese attempt to get the Alaska pipeline back up and running -- the big Soviet troop concentration in Anchorage can't really do anything to interfere with the pipeline, which runs well east of there, and by 2000/2001 they're pretty much falling apart anyway.

Any number of alternate missions could be equally plausible, some CONUS and some elsewhere in the Pacific (security/pirate suppression for Japanese merchant ships, etc.). Could be an interesting campaign idea.

[JHart]

I always wondered if China, on the ropes with the Soviets at the gate, asks the Norks to send help to fight the Soviets, or if the Soviets cut a deal with the Norks to keep them out of it.

THe Norks would be in the catbird seat for a little while. China asks for help, the Norks go to the Soviets and say China's offer is on the table, what do you have

[pmulcahy11b]

I always wondered if China, on the ropes with the Soviets at the gate, asks the Norks to send help to fight the Soviets, or if the Soviets cut a deal with the Norks to keep them out of it.

THe Norks would be in the catbird seat for a little while. China asks for help, the Norks go to the Soviets and say China's offer is on the table, what do you have

That brings up an interesting possibility -- Second Korean War averted. If the PRK accedes to Chinese demands for help, the North Korean people might, with a significant number of North Korean troops out of the country, attempt a revolution. Though they may be too indoctrinated for that. A revolution in North Korea might also bring up a second interesting possibility -- an invasion of the North by the South "to help." Where would the US be in that one

[JHart]

The impression of the Norks is that they are well indoctrinated, but as the casualties mount, anything is possible. It'd be a hard sell for propaganda. After 50 years of solid Communist international brotherhood BS, they have to sell the fact the the Soviets our now the enemy.

As for the ROK going north to liberate, they really couldn't until they think China is knocked out. If the DKP sends troops to help China and then the ROK invades, it would be a hell of a mess. China would see it as a stab in the back, as in "The DKP was helping to save our country, we're fighting for our lives, and you go and help to hasten our downfall."



Knowing how paranoid the DKP is, they'd assume it was a plot all along, pack up and try to go home, or even side with the Soviets.
I doubt they would help China unless the have an agreement from the ROK preventing an attack

The US can't really be involved until China falls and it crosses the Rhine.

[Legbreaker]

Keep in mind this is essentially a United Nations show. The US might have troops involved, but it's the UN in charge (officially).
What's happening in Europe technically has no impact on Korea - enemies in other war zones could, technically anyway, be allies in the east...

It is of course extremely unlikely that participants in the fighting elsewhere would send troops to Korea. At most I'd expect a token force of maybe a few dozen MPs, a handful of medical personnel, maybe ten trucks plus drivers attached to the logistics unit of another nation, that sort of thing.

[HorseSoldier]

An ANZAC force seems likely, as was mentioned up thread. Not sure if anyone else in the region is secure enough to contribute forces, but perhaps.

[Legbreaker]

The Australian contingent might be a little light on though since they're occupied in a conflict with Indonesia at the time. Might manage to pull together a Battalion plus supporting units though - say 1000 men including the New Zealanders

I'm thinking it may be more likely Australia would send Leopard I's to Korea than infantry though as the infantry is more suited to the tropics. On the other hand, Australian tanks haven't been out of the country since Vietnam - they're often seen as too valuable to risk.

[Dog 6]

The Australian contingent might be a little light on though since they're occupied in a conflict with Indonesia at the time. Might manage to pull together a Battalion plus supporting units though - say 1000 men including the New Zealanders

I'm thinking it may be more likely Australia would send Leopard I's to Korea than infantry though as the infantry is more suited to the tropics. On the other hand, Australian tanks haven't been out of the country since Vietnam - they're often seen as too valuable to risk.

maybe have a Battalion sized task force with say 1 company of Leopard I's, 3-4 of infantry, 1 of mech, a commando/ SF unit and a battery of artillery

[Legbreaker]

With all the necessary supporting units, that's a lot more than battalion sized!
Probably more like 16 leopards plus supporting elements, a company of light motorised infantry (trucks), plus a small logistics unit (maybe 30 men). An 81mm mortar battery or 105mm howitzers from NZ may give a little fire support, and a handful of other assets supplied to give some flexibility. NZ might bring in another couple of infantry companies to round out the formation too, possibly bringing in a few of their Scimitars for recon.

[Rainbow Six]

I'd agree with those that think an ANZAC force is likely to be present in Korea. Leg's suggested composition seems reasonable. Maybe some Canadians attached also (CAANZAC ANZACCA)

With regard to other nations, the Survivor's Guide to the UK makes reference to the British 6th Infantry Division (formed from elements of the Hong Kong garrison) linking up with American forces on the Yalu River in the summer of 1997 (can't recall off hand if it mentions the exact month). It's a fairly brief link up however as I seem to recall that the 6th Division is hit quite hard by nuclear strikes later on that summer and retreats back to the Hong Kong / Shenzen area.

(on a side note, the Gurkha Brigade had its own pipe band. I've always thought it would be a neat scene for the American forces on the Yalu to hear the sound of bagpipes in the distance - cue puzzled looks as the pipes gradually get louder and the lead elements of the 6th Division come into view over the horizon...)

Looking at the British Army's late 80's orbat and reconciling that with existing commitments, the cupboard is relatively bare, so I don't think we'd have had anything spare to send directly to Korea unless you advocate adding additional Battalions to the RL orbat to represent formations raised during the War. One could perhaps argue that the British and German units at BATUS in Canada (1st Battalion, Royal Hampshires and 1st Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment for the UK plus two German Battalions) were tasked to form an expeditionary force that was meant to go to Korea but their deployment was initially delayed by lack of shipping then cancelled altogether after the nukes). It's actually as good a reason as I've ever been able to come up with for the presence of those forces in Canada (and the Glosters served with distinction during the first Korean War).

I'm not so sure about the primacy of the UN and the presence of troops from neutral nations though. Whilst it's correct to state that the first Korean War was a War between the UN and North Korea / China (I'm sure I read somewhere that happened because the Soviets didn't use their veto as they were boycotting the UN at the time) I think that by the time of a Second Korean War in T2K the UN would have been rendered more or less impotent, if indeed it was still in existence (I'm going from memory here, but isn't it mentioned in some of the published material that the UN as an organisation falls apart relatively early on in the War - might have been one of the NATO vehicle guides or maybe even Armies of the Night)

Therefore I think the US would be the one firmly in the driving seat in Korea. Even if nominally at least hostilities were still covered under a UN mandate, at all practical levels other countries would view the fighting as an extension of the conflict in Europe (and elsewhere). I think it highly unlikely, therefore, that troops from any neutral nations would deploy under a UN banner.

Just some thoughts...

Cheers

[pmulcahy11b]

Looking at the British Army's late 80's orbat and reconciling that with existing commitments, the cupboard is relatively bare, so I don't think we'd have had anything spare to send directly to Korea unless you advocate adding additional Battalions to the RL orbat to represent formations raised during the War.

I would think that new British units would be kept at home or sent to Europe, with possibly some of them going to the Middle East. I don't see them going to Korea. I forgot about the 6th, though.

[pmulcahy11b]

(on a side note, the Gurkha Brigade had its own pipe band. I've always thought it would be a neat scene for the American forces on the Yalu to hear the sound of bagpipes in the distance - cue puzzled looks as the pipes gradually get louder and the lead elements of the 6th Division come into view over the horizon...)

Here's an interesting thought: a helicopter assault like that in Apocalypse Now, but with bagpipes pouring from the helicopters' speakers...