Korea: Summer 2000.

[Rainbow Six]

I would think that new British units would be kept at home or sent to Europe, with possibly some of them going to the Middle East. I don't see them going to Korea. I forgot about the 6th, though.

I agree. With all that would be going on, I really don't see any sort of British involvment in Korea other than the 6th Division and (maybe) a handful of Special Forces.

[Legbreaker]

It seems we've all been a bit hasty.
This from the Yellow book, edition 2.2...

Page 9 under 1993
Sporadic antigovernment rioting in Pyongyang and other large cities force the North Korean government to make further concessions toward a free market economy.

Page 237
Korea: The newly reunified Republic of Korea came to the assistance of the Chinese early in the war and was subjected to limited nuclear attacks by the Soviets. Although the capital at Seoul was destroyed and several ports were severely damaged (they are now devastated), most of the rest of the country is organized under martial law, and is an Island of stability In a sea of disorganization. Resuming its reputation as the-Hermit Kingdom, Korea is now extremely xenophobic and distrustful of strangers.

However, we have numerous references in a number of books (vehicle guides mainly) of US units fighting North Korean and Soviet troops. On the other hand we seem to have some conflict - Some sources say US troops were fighting North Korean units, but the above says the country was unified early in the war... :S

It also appears the US was sent in as a response to North Korean aggression (but it's a bit vague on detail - could even have been the US who moved first).

Now I've spent a few hours re-reading and researching, I'm of the opinion that the UN was NOT involved. Therefore, any nation other than the US or the Koreans themselves are extremely unlikely to be present/have participated.

It is now my opinion that the US units located in central Korea in 2000 are rather unwelcome too based on the last line of the quote above. The 2nd ID may be tolerated, having long association with the country, but the National Guard units are another matter.
Mind you, the half dozen or so Soviet units are probably just as uncomfortable...

I was also totally unable to find any reference of the UK 6th actually making contact with US units or getting anywhere even remotely near Korea. It appears they were operating elsewhere in China in support of the PLA.
There is certainly no mention whatsoever in any version of any other nation participating in the far east (hopefully somebody can prove me wrong on that).

Hmm, further hours trawling through Challenge found this in issue #36 on page 3.

Korea: The characters were members of the 8th US Army (or of allied Chinese, South Korean, or Australian units)...

[Targan]

It seems we've all been a bit hasty.
This from the Yellow book, edition 2.2...


However, we have numerous references in a number of books (vehicle guides mainly) of US units fighting North Korean and Soviet troops. On the other hand we seem to have some conflict - Some sources say US troops were fighting North Korean units, but the above says the country was unified early in the war... :S

The first edition timeline and the edition 2.2 timeline are not the same. I don't think Korea was reunified pre-Twilight War in the v1 timeline.

[Rainbow Six]

I was also totally unable to find any reference of the UK 6th actually making contact with US units or getting anywhere even remotely near Korea. It appears they were operating elsewhere in China in support of the PLA.

It's mentioned in the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom, specifically page eight.

"In the Far East, the Chinese launched a major offensive in the
summer. The 6th Division was attached to Chinese forces driving
towards northeast China. In July, it was transferred to the 31stArmy
and linked up with the Americans on the Yalu River soon after.
At this time, the Sino-Soviet nuclear exchange began, and the
division took heavy losses from several tactical nuclear strikes.
The survivors were withdrawn, in surprisingly good order, to southern
China."

The order of battle for the British Army in the SGUK has the Division located in South China as of 1 January 2001, with a manpower of 1,400. The orbat is very, very vague on details of which units made up 6th Division...for anyone that's interested below is something I put together a while ago

6th UK Infantry Division

C Squadron, Special Boat Service
41 Commando, Royal Marines*
660 Squadron, Army Air Corps
7 Intelligence Company, Intelligence Corps

26th Infantry Brigade
1st Battalion, Royal Scots
10th Battalion, Parachute Regiment (TA)
2nd Battalion, Royal Hong Regiment (equivalent to TA)*

48th Gurkha Infantry Brigade
2nd Battalion, 2nd King Edward VII's Own Gurkha Rifles
1st Battalion, 7th Duke of Edinburgh's Own Gurkha Rifles
2nd Battalion, 7th Duke of Edinburgh's Own Gurkha Rifles*
1st Battalion, The Royal Hong Kong Regiment (equivalent to TA)

The Queen's Gurkha Engineers

Plus some Royal Signals (including Gurkha Signals), REME, etc. RAF presence consisted of a helo squadron (operating the Wessex), and a flight of Harriers.

Units marked with a * do not exist IRL; 41 Commando was disbanded in 1981 and 2nd/7th DoE Gurkha Rifles were disbanded in 1988. I'm generally wary about "inventing" new units, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, there weren't a lot of spare resources at that point.

The Hong Kong garrison would have been stripped down to the bare bones in anticipation of the 1997 handover (as happened IRL, and in the T2K World was reflected in the two Gurkha Battalions transferred from HK to the MEFF). In my T2K World I reckoned that the start of the Sino Soviet War would warrant a boost to the HK garrison until handover, so I resurrected the two disbanded units, added a second Battalion to the Royal Hong Kong Regiment, and a Battalion of Territorial paratroopers deployed from the UK. Even then, I think it's a seriously understrength Division, and lacks any artillery.

(IRL there was a British Battalion (the Black Watch as it happened) in HK until handover. I know canon has 1 Royal Scots in Europe, but in my work I've moved the Battalions around a bit. For anyone who wants to stick to canon the 1st Battalion, Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters are, I think, unaccounted for).

Of course, the above refers to v1. As Targan rightly says, there are differences between V1 and V2 (I don't know about 2.2), so the information may be different in V2.

On the subject of V2, the US Army Vehicle Guide lists the 2nd Infantry Division as being based at Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam between 1991 and 1996. Does anyone have any ideas / suggestions as to how that could have happened

Cheers

[pmulcahy11b]

On the subject of V2, the US Army Vehicle Guide lists the 2nd Infantry Division as being based at Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam between 1991 and 1996. Does anyone have any ideas / suggestions as to how that could have happened

Cheers

The only way I can account for this is a mistake on the part of the designers. Vietnam would still be strongly in the Soviet sphere of influence in 1991, and probably until at least 1995; after that, Vietnam would probably be on its own.

[Dog 6]

imo some one should work up an Australian obo.

[HorseSoldier]

V2.X timeline just doesn't work on so many levels, really.

[kalos72]

Was v2 written or changed by someone else It misses in alot of ways actually...I dont use it for much if anything.

[Legbreaker]

It's mentioned in the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom, specifically page eight.

Ah, so it is. The one place I didn't look...

There are a few differences between V1 and V2, but overall most of the info (besides timeline) is the same. Unit histories for example are cut and pasted from the V1 vehicle books straight into V2.

I have the feeling that when V2 history was being updated, the intention was for Korean to reunite sometime between 1993 and 1995 but unfortunately this intention wasn't followed through into action and updating unit histories.

Re the Australian involvement, I'm not convinced they should be there since it's not a UN show afterall. Australian troops are engaged against the numerically superior (although technically inferior) Indonesians. I can't see them diverting units away unless there's a damn fine reason (such as UN "request" or really, really stupid government).

[Targan]

Re the Australian involvement, I'm not convinced they should be there since it's not a UN show afterall. Australian troops are engaged against the numerically superior (although technically inferior) Indonesians. I can't see them diverting units away unless there's a damn fine reason (such as UN "request" or really, really stupid government).

What if Australian forces were involved in Korea before the war with Indonesia started

[Legbreaker]

That could work, but we'd still be left with the high probability of those troops being recalled home as soon as the war with Indonesia heated up. Might be a few advisors left (similar to "the team" in Vietnam), but I can't see whole units.
Besides, it's a war between China and the USSR to begin with, the US appear to have been involved in that area mainly because they already had units in South Korea. I doubt ANYONE would have considered actually entering combat against the other superpower in support of a communist country. Weapons and supplies through an intermediary yes, but troops

This of course raises the question of why would the Soviets assist the North Koreans in their attack on the South From deployment dates of various units, and subsequent histories, we can see the attack did not occur until 1997, months after action commenced in Europe. My thoughts are it was an attempt to knock the US troops out of Asia so the Soviet units could be redeployed westward and help stop the Nato advance across eastern Europe.

Any way I look at it, I can't justify Western nations other than the Koreans and US in Korea without United Nations involvement. The UN headquarters were not destroyed until late 1997 when New York was nuked, so it is possible (but I doubt it). The UN may even have relocated itself out of a belligerent country when the nukes were first used. Perhaps the UN still exists in a rather impotent way in say Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or maybe Argentina A hell of a lot of civilians fled the cities in panic, so I can't see why the UN wouldn't have "temporarily" relocated too...

[Rainbow Six]

What if Australian forces were involved in Korea before the war with Indonesia started

That sounds reasonable to me. Anyone know when the War with Indonesia actually started

Perhaps the UN still exists in a rather impotent way in say Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or maybe Argentina A hell of a lot of civilians fled the cities in panic, so I can't see why the UN wouldn't have "temporarily" relocated too...

Again, sounds reasonable. I'd say the most logical place to relocate to was probably Switzerland. As well as being 100% neutral, Switzerland was already host to a number of UN Missions / Departments

http://www.unog.ch/

[Legbreaker]

I thought briefly about Switzerland, and France, even Japan for a moment, but I feel they might be a bit close to nuke targets.....
France, we'll they're a nuclear armed country and even though they've withdrawn from NATO, they're right in the middle of things with a number of nuclear targets.
Switzerland, well they're even closer to the action and although they're about the most neutral country in the universe, fallout isn't very discriminating. There's also the chance of neighbouring countries "taking a shortcut" so to speak.
Japan I ruled out because they've got US forces based there, and I'm sure air operations over Korea would originate there (as they did in the 50's). Therefore there's a good chance Japan could get nuked also (not to mention the fallout from China drifting across).

The southern hemisphere is probably the best place to go with nuclear war threatening. Almost everywhere in the northern hemisphere feels a bit too risky for my liking...

[Abbott Shaull]

The only way I can account for this is a mistake on the part of the designers. Vietnam would still be strongly in the Soviet sphere of influence in 1991, and probably until at least 1995; after that, Vietnam would probably be on its own.

In V1 there was Soviet unit that was based off there vehicle guide. Maybe someone cut and paste the the wrong things...lol You would of thought the editors would of caught it...

[Abbott Shaull]

The UK forces around Hong Kong and other locations in between there and Australia have served as the base unit of the 6th UK Infantry Division up until hand over of the Colony to China. Just before this the HQ was finally back to the UK as well the last Supports units and the Infantry Brigade they had their for security. It is hard call whether the Division stays puts or moves to the Korea. I would think it would serve as base for Common Wealth type of Division or larger unit that the UK and her 'Colonies' (now former) had made famous. I can see a Division in both location under the UK banner that would have 1 Combat Brigade of UK troops and rest of the Division being made up of Common Wealth troops. Same with the UK involvement in the Middle East. The UK provides the core of the Division with other Common Wealth nation sending troops to beef up the UK commitment.