US Navy Ships of the Twilight War

[Olefin]

Leg,

If you read the Soviet Vehicle Guide it clearly implies the 49th holds together in the write up. The 5th was remnants here and there of 40 men or 50 men, but it wasnt a division any more. The way the original Escape scenario is written at most a couple hundred men made it out.

Heck in my campaign we ended up gathering almost every man of the 5th we could find - and in all it was about 140 men - hardly a division anymore. (the B troop of the Cav and Task Force Zulu for instance arent part of the 5th even if you have them join your group)

But the 49th is mentioned with a clear HQ and the BMP-C as a memorial there. A division isnt destroyed as a fighting unit and then has the kind of writeup mentioned in the Vehicle Guide.

Now the 90th Corps could still have broken up - keep in mind the Going Home scenario - some of the units stay on in Germany and are clearly still very much operational units but they arent responsible to Corps HQ anymore - so the 49th may have survived as an intact unit, still functional but not as part of 90th Corps which may have broken apart as a Corps.

Obviously at some point within the operational life of that BMP-C if the Guide is to be taken as canon they were stationed at Fort Sill again.

And one thing about Howling Wildnerness is that it gives projected events, not events that were ever detailed. I..e the canon basically stopped in the summer of 2001 - except for a couple of isolated Challenge magazine articles what happens past July of 2001 is pretty much up in the air.

And 2300AD while a good guide is not necessary the canon per se because so many events (like say the return of the forces in Kenya, the RDF and Korea home as organized units happening or the retaking of California and Arizona and New Mexico from the Mexicans or whatever) were never detailed.

And since there was no story bible that anyone associated with GDW ever produced saying what was about to happen besides Frank Frey's notes on Korea and what Howling Wildnerness says which a lot of people dispute, apparently even inside GDW itself if you look at all the contradictions, then the canon is very malleable as to what will happen after mid 2001.

(i.e. Satellite down is in Feb 2001, Kidnapped early summer 2001 and then it all stops in the US)

Oh and since Kidnapped and Howling Wildnerness are by the same guy thats why I group them together as having the same issues

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I have a dim, distant and therefore unreliable recollection of reading somewhere that in RL the Intrepid was not an easy vessel to move from it's T2K era mooring location because it was effectively silted in place. That would add an additional level of difficulty to any refurbishment of the vessel as a mobile platform, because if it's immobile due to its keel being glued to the river bottom by megatons of mud it won't easily become mobile again (obviously), and because any refurbishment on the scale required for a ship that long out of active service would need to be undertaken at an appropriate facility, not at a tourist dock in downtown Manhattan. Getting it to an overhaul facility would first require a large-scale, time and resource consuming dredging operation. That's a lot of preliminary work for a time-critical, resource-heavy project which carried a risk of becoming unfeasible or irrelevant over the time scale of the war.

Back when they did have to do some work on it in the early 2000s IRL they were worried that she wouldn't budge because of the silt, but a few gentle pulls with tugs and she slid right out.

My thinking was more postwar, during reconstruction, when a rebuilding US would have more time to devote to such things rather than "Get it out and fix it and get it into the war", but otherwise, spot-on.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, the vehicle in question was eventually displayed at Fort Sill, but that could have been YEARS later, after the war was well and truly over and the situation at home had stabilised.

I'm glad you can see that the destruction of 90th Corps as a fighting unit does not automatically mean the 49th was also destroyed. As of 01APR01 the 49th still had a respectable strength of 1200 men and 5 tanks and that's more than many Soviet Divisions and even a number of US Divisions too!

As for the US 5th ID, there's 60 US soldiers held in temporary prison arrangements in Zdunska Wola alone. That obviously can't be the only place they're held. Also, given the absolute pasting the 1st Brigade dished out to the Sov 124th Division, which incidentally was on the route the withdrawal of the 5th was to take, it would seem logical that a substantial portion of those US troops made it into the forest to the south, even if it was on foot.

Additionally, even if only a few hundred US soldiers made it out, and don't forget the 5th started out with 3,000 men and 42 MBTs (plus artillery, APCs, IFVs) that still makes them just as large, or even larger than a number of Pact Divisions. Sure they're disorganised and spread out, but they're not dead. The unit is destroyed as a fighting unit, but they're not all dead. The unit still exists, if only on paper. Some of their manpower and heavy equipment still exists, why else can a PC group just starting out roll up an M1 tank for a vehicle All that group needs to do is link up with a few other groups just like them and they've got a company. A few more and they've got a battalion. (Admittedly that's unlikely to occur while on the run behind enemy lines).

I too have played in games where stragglers were picked up, prisoners rescued, hospitals liberated and a group of over a hundred gathered, and I'm certain we're not alone in that experience. Given that each PC group isn't exactly scouring the region for people and for the most part are probably avoiding contact and discovery, that would seem to imply there's plenty more out there.

The canon material does hang together if you take the time and look at it with an open mind. Some of it may not make perfect sense right away, such as why the Soviets invaded Alaska, but taken in context with everything else happening at the same time, possible and plausible explanations start to appear. As my signature says, nothing happens in isolation.

Open your mind to the possibilities. Don't dismiss things just because the answers don't immediately reach out and slap you in the face.

[James1978]

USS Intrepid

Back when they did have to do some work on it in the early 2000s IRL they were worried that she wouldn't budge because of the silt, but a few gentle pulls with tugs and she slid right out.

They were right to be worried, and it took a lot more than a "few gentle pulls". The first time they tried to move her with seven tugboats, the Coast Guard shut them down after she moved only 15 feet before the propellers dug into the silt. Seems the 24 years worth of silt around the hull and propellers had locked her in pretty tight. It took removing 39,000 cubic yards of silt over three weeks of dredging to get her out, this time with five tugboats. And that was after they'd already dredged out 16,000 cubic yards prior to the first attempt to move her.

Now that was in 2006. I'm sure it wasn't so bad in the mid-90s, but I'm not sure it would be easy either.

Some sources indicate that she no longer has her engines, but this is apparently contrary to US Navy policy. Beyond brief mention in news articles, I couldn't find anything concrete either way.

[Olefin]

Actually Leg the one thing that I dont agree with is how fast the 49th's tank strength went down - the Mexicans werent attacking them and neither were the Russians. They were fighting marauders - but if you read Lone Star the average marauder is armed with at best machine guns and maybe Molotov's - and against a modern tank that is a one way ticket to a very lopsided victory by the tank, even against large numbers of such marauders.

By the way Leg you will find I am very open to new ideas and possibilities. I just hate direct contradictions - i.e. when one author says one thing and another says something different about supposedly the same events.

Oh and glad to see you are looking at my campaign story - I am putting it up not to blow my own horn but instead to have people see how my exposure as a player influenced my ideas about the game in general.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

They were right to be worried, and it took a lot more than a "few gentle pulls". The first time they tried to move her with seven tugboats, the Coast Guard shut them down after she moved only 15 feet before the propellers dug into the silt. Seems the 24 years worth of silt around the hull and propellers had locked her in pretty tight. It took removing 39,000 cubic yards of silt over three weeks of dredging to get her out, this time with five tugboats. And that was after they'd already dredged out 16,000 cubic yards prior to the first attempt to move her.

Now that was in 2006. I'm sure it wasn't so bad in the mid-90s, but I'm not sure it would be easy either.

Some sources indicate that she no longer has her engines, but this is apparently contrary to US Navy policy. Beyond brief mention in news articles, I couldn't find anything concrete either way.

Ahh...did not know about the issue with the silt or the dredging.

[Legbreaker]

The one thing that I dont agree with is how fast the 49th's tank strength went down - the Mexicans werent attacking them and neither were the Russians.

Don't forget there's a very strong expansionist NA presence, with airpower just over the state border in the Ozarks. Not to mention the probability of desertions. It's also probable the 49th contains NA sympathisers and agents (just like all US units) which will be willing, and able to worth from within to further the NA's aims.

[Olefin]

I am ignoring Howling Wilderness as to how it affects the US military dispositions in some areas - for instance the 90th Corps - for one if it is pivotal to MilGov then why no new troops from the 43000 that landed in Norfolk A bunch of troops would have gone there for sure - as it said those oil assets were critical for MilGov.

Now what it says about what happened in NE - that is very believeable with the picture that Last Submarine painted - frankly MilGov authority falling apart there is not only believeable but inevitable with only that one unit there.

[Panther Al]

Don't forget there's a very strong expansionist NA presence, with airpower just over the state border in the Ozarks. Not to mention the probability of desertions. It's also probable the 49th contains NA sympathisers and agents (just like all US units) which will be willing, and able to worth from within to further the NA's aims.

This I am gonna have to disagree: While on the whole, there might be something to what you say, and in some cases be spot on, this a is a case where your knowledge base puts you in the position I would be in if I was talking about things certain Aussie units would or wouldn't do.

The 49th is a Texan Unit. Not Texan as in, Based out of, but made up of Texans who view the Division as part of the greater whole of the US Army System only because they have to be - if they had their way (And the money to pay for it all) they would be a pure Texan Militia under no one's control other than the Governor. They believe they are the successors of all the Texan Units that date all the way back to when Texas was its own country, and before. And not as a Eastern Texas, or panhandle, or any of that, every time I dealt with them they was very strong on the Texan Unity Here to Serve and Defend All of Texas regardless sort of mentality.

If there is any unit in the entire US that views itself as a state militia more than a reserve for the Active Army more than the 49th - I don't know what it would be.

Yes, there might be a handful of NA folks in it. Yes, there would be desertions, but not to the degree that would be seen in other more adhoc units built up by combining various units from various states (the 49th Armoured is the *only* Armoured Division in the USANG that is solely made up of Texan Units) with the expected results in cohesion (IE, That SC NG General is sacrificing the Georgian units because he is trying to keep *his* states people intact... blah blah blah).

[Legbreaker]

...this a is a case where your knowledge base puts you in the position I would be in if I was talking about things certain Aussie units would or wouldn't do.

You are quite probably right about that. However, I was mainly trying to illustrate how certain apparent discrepancies between resources can be explained by applying a little time, effort and logic. There's no need to ignore any of the published material if enough thought and consideration is put in, along with discussions just like this one with like minded Twilight enthusiasts.

[Panther Al]

If you take the 2300 point of view where Texas went its own way, I think it would argue for the 49th being more or less still a going concern: and *very* believable.

If you go to the State House, there is the lobby there in the inside. On the Centre of the lobby floor is the great seal of Texas, arranged around it, is all the other people that at one time or another claimed Texas as part of it: The US Seal is no larger or smaller than any of the others - with room for more.


Always thought it was a clever way to say something without actually saying it.

[Olefin]

Actually Leg there is a great need to ignore the published material if it makes no sense - and the wasting away of the 49th is one place where it makes no sense - too many tanks and men gone in too short a time against forces that cannot seriously harm it.

This isnt an infantry division who doesnt belong in Texas getting bushwhacked by Texas marauders who know the land better than they do.

These are native Texans fighting on their own land, who know the terrain and where to fight and where not to fight. Its one thing if they were fighting Soviet armor and losing tanks - but not against Texan marauders.

There are a lot of things wrong with Howling Wildnerness but if I had to stake a claim on one of the most egregious things its what it tries to do to the 49th Armored.

Remember, like I said, this isnt a bunch of Idaho NG or NY National Guard units getting whipped or losing their morale fighting for land that isnt their own - this is their own home state, their own land and most importantly their own people they would be fighting for. The only defectors that would be happening would be Texian forces deserting to the 49th, not the other way around.

[James Langham]

Maybe the desertions are locals returning to their homes to defend them

Actually Leg there is a great need to ignore the published material if it makes no sense - and the wasting away of the 49th is one place where it makes no sense - too many tanks and men gone in too short a time against forces that cannot seriously harm it.

This isnt an infantry division who doesnt belong in Texas getting bushwhacked by Texas marauders who know the land better than they do.

These are native Texans fighting on their own land, who know the terrain and where to fight and where not to fight. Its one thing if they were fighting Soviet armor and losing tanks - but not against Texan marauders.

There are a lot of things wrong with Howling Wildnerness but if I had to stake a claim on one of the most egregious things its what it tries to do to the 49th Armored.

Remember, like I said, this isnt a bunch of Idaho NG or NY National Guard units getting whipped or losing their morale fighting for land that isnt their own - this is their own home state, their own land and most importantly their own people they would be fighting for. The only defectors that would be happening would be Texian forces deserting to the 49th, not the other way around.

[Legbreaker]

Maybe the desertions are locals returning to their homes to defend them

That makes perfect sense to me and goes a long way to explaining why the 49th deteriorate so quickly. As shown in the books, the 49th is away from home, the Mexicans have invaded, the Russians are in San Antonio, the countryside is in chaos and a number of areas have been nuked. Civil order has broken down and the law extends only as far as the end of a rifle barrel.

Many soldiers, having friends and family in this war zone, aren't going to like being stuck in another state fighting for other people when the situation at home is so grim. The fact that the entire Division is from Texas, and smaller units of battalion, company and even platoon size come from the same geographic regions or even towns is likely to work against the 49th staying together - entire subunits could well fade away in the night taking their vehicles with them to bolster their home towns defences.

In that light, even though they're all Texans, the 49th may well come apart even faster than units elsewhere made of of people from all over the country. Additionally, unlike many other units, home isn't beyond reach - a few weeks on foot could be sufficient to get them there, and Milgov isn't exactly in a position to chase after them.

[Graebarde]

Museum Carriers and locations:

USS Yorktown is located in Charleston, South Carolina and was a museum ship before the start of the Twilight war. I've been on it and it looked to me that she would need a lot of work to get it operational. At best it could operate as an adhoc helo/amphib ship.

USS Hornet is located in Alameda, California . I've been on it and it appeared to be in good condition. In 1970 she was decommissioned at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard Bremerton, WA. Didn't become a museum until 1996. Load it with some A-4s and helos, and the Grey Ghost could harass Mexican/Cuban forces in California, as long as the avgas lasts.

USS Intrepid is located in New York City, New York. Became a museum in the early '80s.

USS Midway is located in San Diego, California. I've been on it and it is in great shape. The ship was decommissioned in 1992, her sister ship Coral Sea was decommissioned the year before. In the Twilight war, both ships could conceivably be reactivated and operate F-18s and helos.

USS Lexington is located in Corpus Christi, Texas. Decommissioned in 1991, and made a museum in 1992. Presumably still serviceable for the Twilight war, the Blue Ghost could operate planes or helos in the Gulf of Mexico.

I don't know about the rest of the carriers as museums by the Lex is sunk in about 20 plus feet of mud, and was gutted well before becoming the museum. UNLESS they did a major yard on her, she wouldn't do much good. Also she is about a mile or two from the closest refinery on refinery row. While not physically damaged too badly I could she her listed in the mud and such an angle that it would probably not get moved post attack. No tugs big enough there to do the job for one thing, and major dredging to get her out of the muck. All that was brough in from NOLA IIRC when they planted her. I was living there at the time and it was big local news.