Poll - Favorite Assault Rifle

[HorseSoldier]

For a service rifle round, 7.62x51 represented an absolute refusal to learn anything about small arms and combat from World War 2 on the part of the US military (and to ignore our own pre-war R&D, such as the Pedersen 276 round).

Had the people making decisions back in the late 40s/early 50s about such things had a shred of sense we'd have wound up with NATO using the British 280/7mm round that improved on the 7.92 Kurz concept rather than adopting a round that was just 30-06 reinvented with more modern powder and a consequently shortened case.

It's what if's and such, but had US forces with FALs (or M14s or even EM-2s) chambered in 280 Brit gone head to head with the AK-47 in Southeast Asia, I doubt 5.56mm would have ever turned up as a military cartridge. It's appearance had a lot to do with the hardware guys dropping the ball so utterly with the 7.62x51/M14 combo that it opened the way for advocates of pure theory to jump into the game, from which we got the SCHV idea and the resultant 5.56x45 round (and 5.45x39, eventually).

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Unfortunately the military is just as much a victim of "what's fashionable" as anybody else.
When all the scientists gushed about the wonderous effects of lightweight, small calibre, high velocity rounds, they were telling the military exactly what the military wanted to hear at that point in time - the rifle would be the most effective force multiplier on the battlefield because these new bullets will make it so.

That is to say, the concept was that the new SCHV rounds would cause hydrostatic shock which would completely incapacitate the enemy soldier, not kill him. Then his comrades would be out of the fight as they carried him away from the area. In this way you removed not just one soldier but possibly another two to four and you created a greater drain on rear area resources as they tended the wounded.

The reality is that the individual soldier's rifle is way down on the list for causing enemy casualties. On a conventional battlefield, artillery & aerial bombing and explosives/fragmentation such as grenades cause the greatest number of casualties. In irregular warfare the enemy often ignores their casualties and continues to fight rather than tend the wounded.

When you get to low level conflict such as urban fighting, then the individual soldier/rifle* combo can really come into its own and I think what it really needs is a round that will injure the enemy to a point where the enemy stops fighting or it kills him outright. * rifle, carbine, smg or whatever individual weapon.

7.62mmN works, 7.62mmS works, 5.56mm works but it does seem that the projectile weight and cartridge length of the 7.62mmS suit that role better than the other rounds I mentioned. I'm not saying it's the best, just that the intermediate cartridge is probably better served by having a heavier projectile than 5.56mm or 5.45mm offer.
It's interesting to note that the Soviets/Russians developed the 9x39mm round to provide a heavier projectile for the close range combat of urban warfare because they weren't satisfied with the 5.45mm nor the 7.62x39mm cartridge for that role.

[Panther Al]

For a service rifle round, 7.62x51 represented an absolute refusal to learn anything about small arms and combat from World War 2 on the part of the US military (and to ignore our own pre-war R&D, such as the Pedersen 276 round).

Had the people making decisions back in the late 40s/early 50s about such things had a shred of sense we'd have wound up with NATO using the British 280/7mm round that improved on the 7.92 Kurz concept rather than adopting a round that was just 30-06 reinvented with more modern powder and a consequently shortened case.

It's what if's and such, but had US forces with FALs (or M14s or even EM-2s) chambered in 280 Brit gone head to head with the AK-47 in Southeast Asia, I doubt 5.56mm would have ever turned up as a military cartridge. It's appearance had a lot to do with the hardware guys dropping the ball so utterly with the 7.62x51/M14 combo that it opened the way for advocates of pure theory to jump into the game, from which we got the SCHV idea and the resultant 5.56x45 round (and 5.45x39, eventually).

Exactly.

The 7.62N is a great round for a GPMG, and even Sharpshooting, but as a battlefield round, its a bit much. Where as the SCHV is perhaps a little bit on the not enough. The 7.62S is a great round in theory, and even in practice to a degree, but the handicaps of the AK47 lets it down.

And yes, the .276 Pederson was a fantastic round, and to be fair, the .280 British was perhaps the best round to come out in the post war period. Its a shame it didn't take - and the US deserves the blame for that. But then, yet again, after a major war, Small Arms Designers returned to the .270-.280 size, only to lose out to something else. Seeing the same thing now - 6.8mm is .270. Sometimes I don't think we will ever learn...

[Targan]

I'm just getting kind of tired of the 7.62mm L love-fest going on here. If it was so ideal, why isn't more widely used in modern assault rifles

Because its not just real men that need to shoot in wars. A smaller round is needed for the women and girly-men.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Drifting off a little but still somewhat on topic - this is one for people who put their hate on the SA80/L85.
This news article is over a year old but it seemed to have been missed outside the UK. For anyone who still thinks the L85A2 is junk because of the problems suffered by the L85A1, the following story shows that it is one tough piece of kit.



Soldier reunited with gun that saved his life
Wednesday 16th December 2009, 11:30AM GMT. Express & Star news website

Hero Black Country soldier Luke Cole has been reunited with the rifle that saved his life in battle.

The SA 80 rifle took three bullets that otherwise would have killed the 24-year-old West Midland Territorial Army Private in a battle that claimed the lives of two comrades and won him the Military Cross.

The first 7.62 mm Kalashnikov round hit the weapon head on, narrowly missing the barrel and tearing apart the bodywork, while the second blew the sight off and the third smashed into the side, ripping through the inside of the gun and blasting out of the pistol grip.

Miraculously none struck Pte Cole, already wounded twice in the battle, and last night he saw the remains of the weapon for the first time since it saved his life in the Taliban ambush two years ago.

The rifle still worked and Pte Cole, from Bradmore, continued to shoot with it for a further hour as he lay trapped in the killing field. And the rifle that fired 360 rounds during the fire fight will now serve as a constant reminder of the bravery shown by Pte Cole in the battle near Garmsir in Helmand Province, Afghanistan.

It has pride of place at the HQ of the 4th Battalion The Mercian Regiment in Fallings Park, Wolverhampton where he was based and will hang on the wall of the bar that last night was renamed The Cole in his honour.

Former forklift truck engineer Pt Cole said: oeIt is a shock to see the state it is in. It makes you realise how heavy the firing was. It saved my life. Any of those three bullets would have killed me instantly if it had not taken the blows.

oeWhen you remember that I had the rifle braced on my shoulder at the time and was sitting up you realise those rounds would have hit me in the head or throat.

Pte Cole was on a six-month tour of duty with the regular army 2 Mercian Regiment when he was hit in the stomach and leg, losing five inches of thigh bone, during the attack in September 2007.

The former Smestow School pupil was on his last mission before redeployment.

Original post http://www.expressandstar.com/latest...aved-his-life/ but I've pretty much just copied and pasted it all here.

[Panther Al]

Drifting off a little but still somewhat on topic - this is one for people who put their hate on the SA80/L85.
This news article is over a year old but it seemed to have been missed outside the UK. For anyone who still thinks the L85A2 is junk because of the problems suffered by the L85A1, the following story shows that it is one tough piece of kit.



Soldier reunited with gun that saved his life
Wednesday 16th December 2009, 11:30AM GMT. Express & Star news website

Hero Black Country soldier Luke Cole has been reunited with the rifle that saved his life in battle.

The SA 80 rifle took three bullets that otherwise would have killed the 24-year-old West Midland Territorial Army Private in a battle that claimed the lives of two comrades and won him the Military Cross.

The first 7.62 mm Kalashnikov round hit the weapon head on, narrowly missing the barrel and tearing apart the bodywork, while the second blew the sight off and the third smashed into the side, ripping through the inside of the gun and blasting out of the pistol grip.

Miraculously none struck Pte Cole, already wounded twice in the battle, and last night he saw the remains of the weapon for the first time since it saved his life in the Taliban ambush two years ago.

The rifle still worked and Pte Cole, from Bradmore, continued to shoot with it for a further hour as he lay trapped in the killing field. And the rifle that fired 360 rounds during the fire fight will now serve as a constant reminder of the bravery shown by Pte Cole in the battle near Garmsir in Helmand Province, Afghanistan.

It has pride of place at the HQ of the 4th Battalion The Mercian Regiment in Fallings Park, Wolverhampton where he was based and will hang on the wall of the bar that last night was renamed The Cole in his honour.

Former forklift truck engineer Pt Cole said: oeIt is a shock to see the state it is in. It makes you realise how heavy the firing was. It saved my life. Any of those three bullets would have killed me instantly if it had not taken the blows.

oeWhen you remember that I had the rifle braced on my shoulder at the time and was sitting up you realise those rounds would have hit me in the head or throat.

Pte Cole was on a six-month tour of duty with the regular army 2 Mercian Regiment when he was hit in the stomach and leg, losing five inches of thigh bone, during the attack in September 2007.

The former Smestow School pupil was on his last mission before redeployment.

Original post http://www.expressandstar.com/latest...aved-his-life/ but I've pretty much just copied and pasted it all here.

Now that is just plain awesome. If ever has to pick up a tab at that bar I would be sorely disapointed in his mates...

[95th Rifleman]

Now that is just plain awesome. If ever has to pick up a tab at that bar I would be sorely disapointed in his mates...

British desighn combined with German engineering. Makes for a nice combo.

[ArmySGT.]

Drifting off a little but still somewhat on topic - this is one for people who put their hate on the SA80/L85.
This news article is over a year old but it seemed to have been missed outside the UK. For anyone who still thinks the L85A2 is junk because of the problems suffered by the L85A1, the following story shows that it is one tough piece of kit.

So what your saying is that the L85 is much like the M16. Took until the A2 model to carry it with pride, and not have to keep putting bits back on with super glue.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Too bad there are no civ sale semi auto versions in the US.

[ArmySGT.]

Too bad there are no civ sale semi auto versions in the US.

Probably would have paid for the L85A2 development ten years ago.

[Sanjuro]

First time I saw the L85 I couldn't beleive how small it was!
When I did rifle drill with the SLR, I could stand at parade rest with the butt on the ground, my right arm slightly curled and my hand on the foresight, ie with about 10" of the barrel in front of my hand and wrist.
Rifle drill with the L85 At parade rest, with my arm straight, I could just reach the end of the barrel. No wonder they made the clever 3-part strap so you could wear it everywhere!

[bobcat]

as far as people saying 5.56mm isn't potent enough i know for fact it drop a decent sized deer at 100M with one aimed shot. (yes i was useing SS109 green tip ammunition)

don't tell range control about it though. i told them the deer ran in front of my target while i was trying to qualify. tasted good too.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

6x45........... all the militar(ies) have to do is switch barrels. 80gr FMJ out of a 14.5" barrel at about 2600-2700 fps with better terminal ballistics and energy.

Just my 2 cents.

[ArmySGT.]

Mmmmmmmmm here kitty, kitty, kitty.

http://www.policestore.com/.aspx/pid=42026/sku=152000096/Product/60-Round-Magazinemc_ID=p4035&sp_rid=MjM3MDYxMDA5NjES1&sp_mid=3718534

[Tegyrius]

6x45........... all the militar(ies) have to do is switch barrels. 80gr FMJ out of a 14.5" barrel at about 2600-2700 fps with better terminal ballistics and energy.

I'm liking the looks of .300 AAC Blackout too.

- C.