Poll - Favorite Assault Rifle

[Tegyrius]

What I really dislike with all the AKs is the right hand position of the cocking handle (Hope this is the right term. I'm talking of the lever you have to pull to load a round into the action.). In my mind, this is so unusual, I can't see to get familar with this. When I have to load the rifle, I still want to have my firing hand at the pistol grip - and my eyes on target. I just can't imagine, that would work with the lever on the right side of the rifle.

I've never had a problem keeping my firing hand on the pistol grip and reaching over the top of the rifle to run the charging handle. Using Hungarian 20-round magazines, I also can reach underneath the rifle without difficulty. But I'm 6'1" and have never had to do it in body armor, both of which may have been factors in my favor.

- C.

[ArmySGT.]

I've always felt, and seen firsthand, that the 5.56 lacked in the hitting power department.

My problem is not with 5.56, it is with the M855 round.

The 55 grain m193 cartridge was a lead core with a full metal jacket. It would flip end for end when travelling through meat creating great wound channels. Sometimes the nose would separate from the base and angle away. This would create to wound channels.

The Hague conventions on ammunition made a mistake mandating pointed ammo as that can cause a more grievous wound than rounded nose.

Anyway the 62 grain M855 is Armor Penetrating with a tungsten rod surrounded by lead. It is balance for it length.

It doesn't yaw and drives right through like an ice pick. Small tight wound channels with small disruption of blood vessels. The damn Fedayeen using opiates in battle in OIF 1 seemed to keep going when hit. They didn't feel it whacked on pain killers but, certainly died later.

It is why Mk 262 and SOST is working better. The Insurgents are not wearing body armor and the M855 goes right through them.

Unofficially it is taught now to shoot for the pelvis or scapula to make an incapacitating bone break. Skirting legality though.

[Legbreaker]

What I really dislike with all the AKs is the right hand position of the cocking handle.

There are many, many weapons with the cocking handle on the right side of the weapon - take the M60 machinegun for example.
I agree though it's bad practise to remove your master hand from the pistol grip, but if that's the way the weapon is designed, so be it. You can't actually shoot while operating the cocking handle anyway (unless there's something seriously wrong with the weapon), so it's not all bad.
And then there's bolt action rifles....

[Panther Al]

My problem is not with 5.56, it is with the M855 round.

The 55 grain m193 cartridge was a lead core with a full metal jacket. It would flip end for end when travelling through meat creating great wound channels. Sometimes the nose would separate from the base and angle away. This would create to wound channels.

The Hague conventions on ammunition made a mistake mandating pointed ammo as that can cause a more grievous wound than rounded nose.

Anyway the 62 grain M855 is Armor Penetrating with a tungsten rod surrounded by lead. It is balance for it length.

It doesn't yaw and drives right through like an ice pick. Small tight wound channels with small disruption of blood vessels. The damn Fedayeen using opiates in battle in OIF 1 seemed to keep going when hit. They didn't feel it whacked on pain killers but, certainly died later.

It is why Mk 262 and SOST is working better. The Insurgents are not wearing body armor and the M855 goes right through them.

Unofficially it is taught now to shoot for the pelvis or scapula to make an incapacitating bone break. Skirting legality though.

Quite right: Should have made the distinction between what we use now and what it was designed to use, as its two very different things.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

My problem is not with 5.56, it is with the M855 round.

The 55 grain m193 cartridge was a lead core with a full metal jacket. It would flip end for end when travelling through meat creating great wound channels. Sometimes the nose would separate from the base and angle away. This would create to wound channels.

The Hague conventions on ammunition made a mistake mandating pointed ammo as that can cause a more grievous wound than rounded nose.

Anyway the 62 grain M855 is Armor Penetrating with a tungsten rod surrounded by lead. It is balance for it length.

It doesn't yaw and drives right through like an ice pick. Small tight wound channels with small disruption of blood vessels. The damn Fedayeen using opiates in battle in OIF 1 seemed to keep going when hit. They didn't feel it whacked on pain killers but, certainly died later.

It is why Mk 262 and SOST is working better. The Insurgents are not wearing body armor and the M855 goes right through them.

Unofficially it is taught now to shoot for the pelvis or scapula to make an incapacitating bone break. Skirting legality though.

I know a lot was made in the media about the alleged use of opiates by insurgents in Iraq but I've never seen a lot of evidence to prove that it was the norm and not just an odd occurrence here and there.
However I have seen lots of evidence first hand of the M855 round over-penetrating and doing relatively little damage on wood, metal and more importantly, on feral animals (particularly goats).

The M855 round (specifically the Australian version of it) was in use with a number of Agricultural Protection officers in Western Australia in the early 1990s for culling feral goats, cats, foxes and dogs. They were using semi-auto versions of the F88 Austeyr (or it could have been that the full-auto lock-out was permanently fixed, I can't remember), the rifles and ammo were supplied direct from the Small Arms Factory, Lithgow.

The M855 round would drill right through the goats and they would stand there, look at you and then run off a couple of hundred metres to hide in the scrub only to bleed out later. Even gutshots didn't drop them with the 5.56mm.
I can tell you, those goats were not using opiates - well, as far as I'm aware but you know what some of those radical goats are like, long beards, shaggy hair, don't bother to wash, berets & turtlenecks and using any kind of weed they can find, bloody hippies and beatniks the lot of 'em!

I tend to believe that a lot of the problems with dropping Fedayeen in OIF1 came down to over-penetration/low damage of the 5.56mm M855 ammo and the fact that the Fedayeen were very well motivated by religious belief rather than the idea that they were 'hopped up' on drugs.

[ArmySGT.]

I know a lot was made in the media about the alleged use of opiates by insurgents in Iraq but I've never seen a lot of evidence to prove that it was the norm and not just an odd occurrence here and there.

I didnt get to see or watch the news of those events for years later. I dont know of any use in the Insurgency. The Fedayeen were an Elite Group (abusing the work Elite for sure) of Ba athists. Saddam used history and myth to create backgrounds and lineages for his formations. The Fedayeen are the Ismaili sect that came to be known as the Assassins. Saddam used the name to enhance the fearsome reputation of his better equipped thugs.

However I have seen lots of evidence first hand of the M855 round over-penetrating and doing relatively little damage on wood, metal and more importantly, on feral animals (particularly goats).

Interestingly so has just about everyone. Which is why it is so damn frustrating that it is the primary ammunition type. Only political cronyism can explain the issue of AP ammo that is less effective in a fight with an enemy that does not wear body armor anyway.

The M855 round (specifically the Australian version of it) was in use with a number of Agricultural Protection officers in Western Australia in the early 1990s for culling feral goats, cats, foxes and dogs. They were using semi-auto versions of the F88 Austeyr (or it could have been that the full-auto lock-out was permanently fixed, I can't remember), the rifles and ammo were supplied direct from the Small Arms Factory, Lithgow.
The M855 round would drill right through the goats and they would stand there, look at you and then run off a couple of hundred metres to hide in the scrub only to bleed out later. Even gutshots didn't drop them with the 5.56mm.

Same thing with Turkeys on the Rifle ranges at Ft. Riley.
These birds would walk right across the range, blithely ignoring the 40 firers and their noisy rifles trying to qualify on a pop up range. Birds would hop, ruffle their feathers, and keep on strutting along.
Technically your supposed to shut down the range for wild life. However the turkeys are so numerous that no one closes a range because of them.

I can tell you, those goats were not using opiates - well, as far as I'm aware but you know what some of those radical goats are like, long beards, shaggy hair, don't bother to wash, berets & turtlenecks and using any kind of weed they can find, bloody hippies and beatniks the lot of 'em!

Randy old things always with a wink, a leer, or a whistle. Poor example for young gentlemen.

I tend to believe that a lot of the problems with dropping Fedayeen in OIF1 came down to over-penetration/low damage of the 5.56mm M855 ammo and the fact that the Fedayeen were very well motivated by religious belief rather than the idea that they were 'hopped up' on drugs.

Ten years on I wonder if the after action reports are available. It was the Marines in the vicinity of An Nasiriyah, if I recall correctly.

[Raellus]

I tend to believe that a lot of the problems with dropping Fedayeen in OIF1 came down to over-penetration/low damage of the 5.56mm M855 ammo and the fact that the Fedayeen were very well motivated by religious belief rather than the idea that they were 'hopped up' on drugs.

You're probably right. The sight of enemy fighters taking multiple hits and still kicking has got to have a pretty powerful psychological impact on the folks who witness it (and the shooters especially). As a result, those stories tend to get passed around and the idea that that sort of thing is the norm tends to spread quickly.

In the book Blackhawk Down, Somali fighters are described as being hopped up on a popular, locally grown stimulant called Khat [sic]. Some of the American Delta boys were using titatium-tipped 5.56mm ammo in their M4s and they apparently passed right through their unarmored targets, who continued to fight as if nothing had happened. Regular 5.56mm had roughly the same effect in many cases.

During the battle of Fallujah, Marines found stockpiles of perscription stimulants, atropine, and adrenaline among insurgent weapons caches (No True Glory- Bing West; House to House- David Bellavia). Apparently, the insurgents were pumping themselves up for the fight. Once again, it was probably a relatively small number of fighters doing it, but the sight of one or two guys taking multiple rounds center mass or having limbs blown off and continuing to fight would tend to leave a pretty strong and frightening impression. Troops can be forgiven for spreading/believing those kinds of stories.

[HorseSoldier]

In Bowden's book, he talks about the same problem with 7.62x51 AP ammo through M60s.

When it's all said and done, people can be both surprisingly hard and surprisingly easy to kill, just depending. (That said, I agree on the issues with M855 -- problem I see with it is consistency, with way too much variation in terms of accuracy and lethality across lots due to the overly complex nature of the projectile.)

[Legbreaker]

Which is why AP shouldn't be standard issue....

[bobcat]

armor piercing ammo should only be issued out in large scale if your expecting armor wearing bad guys. ball ammo or hollow points for unarmored bad guys.(considering the hague only got a handful of countries to even show up let alone agree to the damned thing i see nothing wrong with dum dum bullets for a fight)

[HorseSoldier]

The restriction on projectiles intended to cause unnecessary suffering only applies to opponents who adhere to the laws of land warfare -- which insurgents can do, though the current crop of ass hats certainly fail to do.

As such, technically zapping them with the finest maiming technology modern science can dream up (as well as summary executions and other bits of extremity much frowned on these days) is permissible, though the political costs of such are obviously show stoppers.

[HorseSoldier]

Which is why AP shouldn't be standard issue....

It was, apparently very popular in WW2 for use by BAR men in US formations because it penetrated structures and cover better. I've always wondered if the use of it in Somalia was someone looking backwards and thinking if it was good enough for D Day itches good enough for Mogadishu.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Leg and I have very similar views on firearms I think. Even with increased weapon and ammo weight I'd go for a 7.62mm rifle over 5.56mm any day. My deep and abiding love for the SLR will never die. Sure it's old school but it's the only rifle I'm still confident I could strip, clean and reassemble in a hurry. And it's so damned rugged, a really solid piece of equipment. The 7.62mmN round will knock a man down and leave him DRT nearly every time. And up close and personal there is a big difference between a butt strike from a "plastic fantastic" modern assault rifle/carbine etc and a battle rifle, not to mention what you can do with a SLR with a fixed bayonet. Terrifying.

Yeah, I have similar views myself, even though my experience is limited. If I was dropped into an unknown planet that is Earthlike, I'd want at least something from .270 caliber but I'd prefer something at least .30 caliber. The AK being tolerant of harsh conditions with 7.62mmS would be a good choice. At least the .7.62mmS is comparable to a .30-30, a a good deer round. Anything larger, hopefully with enough hits, I could bring it down. I would like something more powerful, that would be something like the M-14 or SLR in .308 Win (7.62mm NATO) or even the M1 Garand in .30-06. The M-16 series, better than nothing but if I had to go back in time, at least they should have uprated it to something like a .243 Winchester.

P.S. - Since this is for assault rifles only, my choice is the AKM/AK-47, but the rest of my post about having a battle rifle stands.

[Legbreaker]

Personally I'm not a huge fan of the 7.62S round. Very hard to hit the broad side of a barn at a decent range unlike 7.62N. Hell, even 5.56N is in my experience more accurate (if less hard hitting).

[Raellus]

The fact remains that 7.62mm is too heavy and too high power to be practical for the engagement ranges that most soldiers will find themselves fighting at. Folks have known this since WWII (at the latest) and that's why 7.62 x 39mm and other "intermediate" rounds were developed.

Yes, if most engagements were at 300m +, then 7.62mm L would be the way to go, no question. But for fights at less than 200m- and that's most fights nowadays- it's just too much round for the job. And if you want to have the full auto fire option, forget about 7.62mm L.

I'm not saying that 5.56mm (or 5.45mm) is a particularly good round- there are probably better- but the 7.62mm L is not the be-all, end-all of assault rifle bullets.

There's a reason why a lot folks insist on the distinction between "battle" and "assault" rifles. They're different classes of firearms, due, for the most part, to the size and power of the cartridge they fire. Nearly everything that I've heard and/or read states that accurate full-auto fire is almost impossible with a 7.62mm L rifle. I mean, nearly every Western GPMG uses the same round and they all have bi-pods/tri-pods.

I'm just getting kind of tired of the 7.62mm L love-fest going on here. If it was so ideal, why isn't more widely used in modern assault rifles And don't get going on politics or the evil U.S.A. military-industrial complex.

I'll put it in the non-fiction recommendations thread but if this sort of thing interests you, you should read The Gun (by Chivers). It's a history of the AK-47 series with a good long preface (the first third of the book) on the history and development of the fully automatic gun. There's also a lot about the development of the M-16 rifle and, although the author tries to avoid getting drawn into the whole 7.62mm S vs. 5.56mm round debate, there is some interesting stuff about that as well (including top-secret comparison testing on cadavers surreptitiously imported from India).