Overseas Units and Family

[kalos72]

So after posting my article, or whatever you call it, and discussing it some with a few people, the question came up about family ties.

If I unit is stationed in an area for a long time, how much would that affect its loyalty to its government or command

After reading the Kenya Orbit, what would that unit do if a freighter pulled into port and said "we are here to bring back to the US now, hop on" Assuming of course it was legitimate, could be trusted or proven as direct orders and they fit.

[kalos72]

Anything thoughts on this

[headquarters]

everything depends I guess..

In our campaign we had a faction called MilGov ASIA - in lack of a better name for it - it was the remnants of all the overseas personell and their families/campfollowers from the multitude of postings overseas that had some of them - come together in sort of an umbrellla unit that coordinated a push to evacuate to the west coast -and the invasion of said coast .

In this campaign , interamarriage with the local population and the sheer power of the US military presence had made strange constallations politically , with some US troops as second generation exiles now fighting for a land they had never put foot on .

Also local govs were to some extent reliant on the power of the Yanks to uphold the balance of power in the specific region.

Specifically the Koreans and parts of Japan were aligned with the MilGov faction and supplied them with commodities in exchange for continued military support .

Some units were hodgepodges of nationalities that had sworn allegiance and signed the articles to join.

The relatively sudden mass exodus was not appreciated by all , and in some cases units chose to stay in cantonment and carry on as more or less a colony or a Diadochtian fief you might say ,like Ptolomayan Egypt .
( a powerful faction or elite of foreigners that impose their rule on the native population with a distinct cultural difference -and then over time slowly melding to something inbetween the two ).

[pmulcahy11b]

I think people would find it disturbing how little attention is given to getting the families of servicemen/women, or noncombatants in general, out of the way. I've been out of the loop at that level for a while, so I don't know how they handle it now, but it used to be a sort of "jam them on whatever plane or ship is available," approach, and every family has a bug-out bag ready.

You might also have a situation like Saigon in 1975 -- you have to fight off civilians who you don't intend to evacuate (or even allied personnel). Families might have a really hard time trying to get to evac points. And remember, airfields are major targets in the opening hours of just about every World War 3 scenario. In Sir John Hackett's The Third World War, there is a very ugly scene about a plane full of evacuating families going down at an airfield in Germany (IIRC, after a nearby MRL rocket hit while the plane was taking off -- been a while since I read it). That's bound to have a major effect on morale.

One player I in a game I GMed once played a 20-year-old girl (by 2000) who was a US dependent at the beginning of the Twilight War. The player had the PC driven by a determination to find her father -- she already seen the rest of her family in Germany die. Interesting character workup process there...

[Abbott Shaull]

In the book "Team Yankee" here was a part about getting dependents out of Germany and how some almost didn't make it.

[Legbreaker]

Seems to me that there's more info on how little effort is given on getting dependants out than on anything else. It's therefore logical (although maybe not correct) to assume most would stay where they are, at least in the early stages of the war when the front is a long way off (the Nato drive in 96-97 for example where western forces made it all the way to Russia).

Once the tide turned, it may still have been some time before anyone thought they could be in danger. Tac nuke use may have caused a few to flee, but again, in the early stages this was restricted to pretty much just the front lines.

In my view, wholesale fleeing probably wouldn't have been a priority until the first long range strikes on non-military targets. Panic may have set in a lot earlier, but as the time from first nuke to long range strikes was in the order of months rather than days or weeks, many who previously fled probably had returned home, just to flee again at the next scare....

By the time the front in Europe had been pushed back across most of Poland and Germany was under threat, chances are it was too late to go much further than the nearest hills. Fleeing back to the US at that stage was probably about as possible as going to the moon.

Until Omega and TF 34 came along...

How many civilians, not directly associated with the military or either US government would be trying to get on board I'm thinking of the evacuation of Saigon in the last days of Us involvement and the seens of complete chaos we've all seen.

It is my view the perimeter troops would be holding back hordes of refugees all looking for a space on board a rusty old ship. Probably not too much of an issue while there were thousands of troops still there, but I wouldn't want to be amongst the final handful!

[Adm.Lee]

I'd kind of assumed that the American (Canadian, British) dependents in Europe would have been evacuated during the first few months of shooting in Germany. There wouldn't be the urgency of the Pact forces blasting west, and plenty of airliners flying between the US and Europe.
After the first (and largest) wave, there should be a trickle of families leaving as servicemembers are killed or wounded and rotated home. There's probably a second wave once the nukes start flying.

Having said that, there would certainly be some families that would stay behind voluntarily, and many more that would have married/moved in with foreign soldiers, especially in cantonments.

[kalos72]

Using Germany as an example...

Do you think a GI stationed in Fulda for example, would prefer to stay there or would they try to get the family back to the US since there was 'room' for them in TF34

[Legbreaker]

Many of the long serving soldiers stationed in Europe may have integrated into the society, marrying locals, buying homes, etc. This is obviously less likely for lower ranks and reinforcements though, but we're talking civilian dependants here, not the soldiers themselves.

I can't see people who've made a life for themselves fleeing their homes and going halfway around the world, just because there's a war on waaaaay over to the east (which their side appears to be winning very handily). Once the tide turned and Nato was being pushed back, then the nerves might come into play however they've still got their homes and the world around them appears to be operating normally on the whole.

Reinforcement Divisions are still flooding into Europe and you can bet the news reports are being sensored to spare the civilians the true situation on the front - all possible efforts would likely be made to spin the situation and keep everyone happy.

Even once tac nukes were being used, I doubt there'd be much worry - the nearest in the early stages was waaaay over near the Russian (Not USSR) border and aimed at military targets.

Civilian travel is likely to become restricted too, if only because more and more of the available fuel is being used by the military. Civilian cars might still be allowed, however the cost of running one has by this time likely tripled or more.

Another factor is the perception, based on reality or not, that the EMP from tac nukes could effect planes thousands of miles away causing them to drop out of the sky. Even if regulatory bodies allowed Airlines to fly, and they could afford the fuel, I can't imagine the huddled masses being too keen on risking their lives in that way.

Which leaves travel by ship. As we know, a great deal of shipping is on the bottom by mid 1997 and I would imagine that many, if not most of the passenger vessels had been pressed into service as troop transports making them into prize targets for subs and raiders. This belief is borne out by several unit histories stating they'd suffered heavy casualties in the crossing from the US to Europe.

Even with these losses, there may be a number of passenger capable ships available, however fuel (again) would be in relatively short supply. Many of these ships would also probably be carrying wounded soldiers back to the US so space would still be fairly limited. Also, by this time, most people would be well aware of the high level of destruction on the seas so only a few might be willing to risk gambling against being sunk during the crossing.

Once in the US, these people are likely to have nowhere to go if they're originally from Europe. Those who are US citizens and had travelled TO Europe with their partners, may well have family and friends, but again fuel to get them there may be an issue.

Once the nuke war really opens up in November 1997, it seems highly unlikely there'd be anyone heading to the US. As bad as things must be in Europe, everyone knows the US was bound to be targeted by ICBMs and the cities wiped off the face of the planet. Why would anyone want to give up the little they have and travel to a place which is widely rumoured to have been flattened

By Christmas 97-98, rumour is probably all anyone outside the military (and inside too most probably) would have to go on. One rumour might say the US is totally un-nuked and a wonderful paradise, while another says it's nothing more than one great big smoking hole glowing with radioactivity...
Which one are you going to believe

[jester]

I've studied and trained for such operations.

In a hostile zone, they will have plans for selected units, go to the civilians who will have been told to assemble at a rally point, either the embassy or a predetermined location that is secure. From there they will be escorted to a extraction point that can be secured. Air assets if possible will provide security as idealy they are extracted via helos or cargo planes <C-130s, or if its a larger airport C-141s or other aircraft> The helos will remove the civilians from the immediate area to either ships waiting off short <war ships! Usualy LPD or LPDs or Aircraft Cariers> or to a more secure area where they can catch a traditional plane or even to a 3rd country where they can be transfered to other means to return them home.

the methods that will be utilized will be Helocopters, now maybe even the Osprey, trucks and hummers or boats heck even zodiaks. If it gets shitty enough...well, think of that movie Tears of the Sun, they get to walk.

Other options, for service members overseas, they will be evacuated to either a 3rd country where it is safe, or to CONUS but they will go out of theater! Since this is a military intilation they are a target, plus having alot of civilians around well, they can get in the way, they can cause problems as they fear, worry, control them and your troops will focus on them and worry distracting them from their duties. As well as they will require food, water, shelter, power and medical supplies if wounded. And they will need to be protected and escorted out should it come to that. So, they will be evacuated.

Evacuation methods, nuetral 3rd party ship. Bus or train to nuetral 3rd party nation, flight home, flight to 3rd party nation with a flight/train/ship home. Military or contracted ship home. And yes, they will make room for them on ships returning home, hospital ships and Red Cross ships. A good portion of the vessels will be left for such cases.

And yes those who have retired and opted to live in the local economy can get home, or they can stay, they will have to ASK to go home though.

I hope this helps.

Further, a U.S. citizen who is stranded overseas just needs to come to the U.S. embassy or consulate and request assistance going home and arraingments will be made to send them home. Costs can be recoved from those persons upon return home however, so it isn't a free ride to be abused. This of course is decided on a case by case basis.

[Targan]

I think much of the decision on whether to seek to head back to the States or not would come down to the personality and mindset of individuals, and also the amount of solid information available on conditions at home.

Conditions in Europe in 2000 are going to be pretty bloody awful almost everywhere (with the possible exception of the Franco-Belgian Union). It is natural for people to develop a "grass is greener" mentality when they are away from home in awful conditions. If a person knew that things in the US were no better however they might take the view that they are better off staying where they are. Also, some people are a lot more practically minded than others, and/or have the ability not to kid themselves. They would be better equipped to take emotion out of the equation and really make a logical, measured judgement call.

In my campaign as soon as the PCs' group heard about Operation Omega they were all very keen to get back to the CONUS. None of them had any family in Europe so I don't suppose they had much reason to want to stay, but it was more complicated than that. Even though the players knew that conditions in the CONUS would for the most part be just as bad for their characters as they were in Poland, they still played their characters as desperately wanting to get home. Many of the PCs and NPCs were hoping to be able to find their loved ones back home. Major Po only had his granny to return to but he also had family assets stashed away in the States that he thought he might be able to recover. Some of the characters were just sick and tired of western Europe.

I thought the players played it really well when their characters got back to the States. The sense of bitter disappointment at finding the USA utterly shattered was palpable. There really was some strong emotion in that part of the campaign and I was quite proud of how it turned out. I guess we'd all been playing the game for so long in real time that there was a fair bit of emotional investment in both the characters and the campaign itsself. Until the PCs and NPCs in the party found a new sense of direction a pall of depression hung over the party, well into January of 2001.

In summary I think the great majority of US personnel in Europe in 2000 are going to want to try to get back to the States, although if non-military loved ones in Europe with them won't be able to go back too, the military personnel might well stay and work towards being repatriated later.

[Legbreaker]

If there are no dependants, property, etc in Europe, then there's a definate chance the individual soldier will want to leave and go "home" no matter how bad it actually is there.

If on the other hand they've built some sort of a life in Europe, well, that's probably something of a case by case situation.

For those units which have been stationed in Germany for a long period of time, such as the 11th ACR which was stationed there since the early to mid 1970's, the likelyhood of the bulk of it's personnel staying should be much higher than in say a unit which was only shipped over during the war.

Some of the personnel of the 11th ACR could well be US citizens but never laid eyes on the country - parent(s) were soliders in German in the 70's and 80's and they've grown up in and around the military bases. It's theoretically possible that two or three generations of the one family could be serving in such a unit at the same time.

[kalos72]

Thats some great insight there Jester thanks. I might be able to use that as a whole new plot line.

Family gets shipped back to the US...lands in Mayport Naval base...a nuke just misses Mayport. Road trip to Mayport it is.

[chico20854]

If there are no dependants, property, etc in Europe, then there's a definate chance the individual soldier will want to leave and go "home" no matter how bad it actually is there.

If on the other hand they've built some sort of a life in Europe, well, that's probably something of a case by case situation.

For those units which have been stationed in Germany for a long period of time, such as the 11th ACR which was stationed there since the early to mid 1970's, the likelyhood of the bulk of it's personnel staying should be much higher than in say a unit which was only shipped over during the war.

Some of the personnel of the 11th ACR could well be US citizens but never laid eyes on the country - parent(s) were soliders in German in the 70's and 80's and they've grown up in and around the military bases. It's theoretically possible that two or three generations of the one family could be serving in such a unit at the same time.

That would be the case if the US Army in Germany was run differently, but it wasn't. Let me explain...

Most US troops in Germany were assigned more or less randomly to units on two-year rotations. Every soldier assigned to Europe in peacetime received orders to an adjutant general battalion at the Frankfurt airport. Once there they would look to see what unit needed a soldier of the appropriate rank and specialty as the reporting soldier and then send the soldier on to that unit, whether it was located in Germany, Italy, the UK or Greece. (Since we don't use a regimental system like the UK, any soldier can go to any unit that needs his particular skills)

When a soldier arrived at his unit he was assigned government housing. If he was single, he would live in the barracks. If he /she was married, they would be assigned housing in one of the "kassernes", US Army posts that resembled (in a slightly twisted way) American small towns, with American fast food (Burger King for many years held the sole contract for name-brand fast food on US Army bases worldwide), a PX, schools run by the US Army with American civilian teachers (most of which were spouses of soldiers), libraries and American cable TV in every home. In many ways the families were quite separate from Germany - they had a little bit of America in Germany that they mostly lived in, albiet one where every weekend they could go on a fabulous, low-cost European vacation. In fact, the Army operated a number of recreational facilities in Europe, including a resort in the Alps, that provided American meals, English-speaking staff and accommodations and activities familiar to Americans. When a soldier's two-three year tour was over, he would be reassigned to another unit, almost always back in the U.S. - there were clear standards for required periods of service overseas. Very few soldiers "lived on the economy" - rented housing, and even fewer bought any property. The most permanent property most soldiers had in Europe was their car and household goods.

In addition, the promotion system prevented soldiers from staying overseas for very long periods of time. When a soldier transitioned from lower enlisted (privates and specialists) to being a NCO it was quite common that he would be assigned to a new unit, in order to prevent problems of authority/respect with his former peers who were now lower ranking. In addition, the requirement to attend long-term schools for promotion to more senior rank in both the officer and NCO corps (schools like BNCOC (for promotion to Staff Sergeant), ANCOC (promotion to Sergeant 1st Class), Command & Staff College (Lt Col., I believe) and the Officer Advanced Course (Major)) meant that a soldier was frequently assigned back to the US if he had any hope of being promoted - and under the "up or out" policies failure to get promoted (for example, to sergeant in 8 years or staff sergeant in 16 years) meant that the soldier would be put out of the army.

Additionally, each soldier was required to maintain a "family care plan" that detailed how his dependents were to be cared for when he was deployed or the balloon went up. It had things like having important papers and traveling supplies ready at all times, locations for evacuation transport (buses would evacuate dependents from the kassernes to the airbases that reinforcing troops were arriving on; the 747s that were carrying troops to POMCUS sites would carry families back), contact information for family and friends in the states, and arrangements for where families would go when they returned to the U.S.

Sure, some soldiers tried to stay overseas for longer times, but they were relatively rare. I worked for a sergeant that loved Korea, he ended up being stationed there for 9 of his 22 years in the Army, but they were split into 6 stints, and he was never at the same post (and that was in a single division). Soldiers did interact with the locals, and there were a good number of German and Korean wives around, but by no means near 10%. As far as soldiers who had dependents who had never been to the U.S., VERY unlikely. There were some soldiers who, upon retirement, chose to live in Germany with their German spouses (and often start a second career working on one of the US Army bases), but overall I think the likelihood of significant numbers of pre-war troops deciding to remain in a post-war Germany due to ties to the community derived before the war is pretty low.

[Jason Weiser]

Chico's got it right. I lived for three years at NAS Rota, Spain, and things were very similar. To be sure, such an evac would have problems if it were conducted in the midst of hostilities. Team Yankee did a fine job of illustrating that. My guess is that for our purposes, USAEUR and BAOR activate their dependent evacuation plans once the Bundeswehr crosses the IGB, as many commands suspect that things are going to get real bad and that it may be the last chance to get folks out. There might have also been unofficial evacuations of dependents when REFORGER kicks off, as many soldiers are going to decide that things are about to get very ugly.