Overseas Units and Family

[Abbott Shaull]

Yes I don't believe that they all left after West Germany entered East Germany. Many of these if they were still in NATO when Sweden was invaded, I would like to point out that in many cases, it fell on the UK and the US to provide the major reinforcements into Sweden. Many of the countries mentioned were only to give token reinforcement to Sweden while the bulk of their units were designated to go elsewhere during a war with the Soviet Union.

In fact, with Spanish and Portugal, I never really knew where they were suppose to reinforce. Italy it seems would be tossed up with troops going to Germany, Greece, and Italy. While France and Belgium would send most troops to Germany since that is where the threat to them would come from.

Yet as state once West Germany crossed into East Germany, many of the allies could this as reason why they weren't responding to the Soviet attack on Sweden until they had officially withdrew from the NATO. Belgium would be caught in tricky situation in that NATO HQs are based there and some of the US POMUS sites are in their country.

While Denmark and other who remained in the Alliance, but not partaking of the war as active members. These members were more worried about the Soviets attacking them directly, or through Germany than they were worried about the helping out Sweden even though they they had token units that would head there. Denmark had been known to be a target of Soviet Front that included Polish Marine Division that would make run through Northern West Germany as well as making amphibious landings into Denmark.

[Legbreaker]

Denmark was actively involved in the war with units both in Germany/Poland and the Scandinavian Peninsula.

[Abbott Shaull]

Denmark was actively involved in the war with units both in Germany/Poland and the Scandinavian Peninsula.

Denmark according to the V1 as well as other who didn't leave NATO directly gave limited help. To largely partake in the defense of German soil and to support the Offensives. The only part that I do remember any mention of Danish units was going home in which they had withdrew for the most part into Denmark.

[Adm.Lee]

Denmark according to the V1 as well as other who didn't leave NATO directly gave limited help. To largely partake in the defense of German soil and to support the Offensives. The only part that I do remember any mention of Danish units was going home in which they had withdrew for the most part into Denmark.

Wasn't the Jutland Division in XI US Corps, in northern Poland in 2000 That's roughly a quarter of the Danish Army.

[natehale1971]

We had always played Belgium as being forced into the French Union when the French Army Invaded the, then Neutral Belgium, after alot of French propaganda got the French Walloons supporting the occupation of the West Bank of the Rhine.

It wasn't until the French turned the East Bank into a no-mans land (including Netherlands) that the Flemish and some of the Walloons started to go "oh Shit"...

Hell, our campaign had the creation of Flanders post-Twilight War because the French Union launched a major attack on Bremerhaven to keep the Germans from getting all the hardware that the US was giving them and the British in exchange for the ships to get the US Forces out of Europe.

The combined forces turned and fought off the French-led force and didn't stop until they were in to pre-war French Soil so that the remaining dependents could get out of the way.

Flanders, Netherlands and the West Bank of the Rhine were no longer part of the French union. Hell, when our campaign ended the governments were negotiations on the formerly occupied Grand Duchy of Luxembourg getting Alsace-Lorraine as reparations for their treatment during French Occupation so they could become a neutral buffer state between France and Germany.

But back on topic...

The Evac of the Dependents would have been in stages, especially after the 'false start' of the Sino-Soviet War that had them do the major evacuation of dependents and only to see them returned a few weeks later when the expected offense in Europe didn't happen.

Some officers and senior NCOs might have sent their families back to the States when the West Germans went into East Germany to 'evict' the Soviets from the DDR. Espeically if they had the brains to know, 'This is not going to end well'... Hell, this would have put a lot of people into wanting to send their families home on what ever transport they could get on board.

Thus the statement that the planes and ships that had brought men & materials over would have been loaded up with who ever wanted to get out of the possible combat zone. And with the fighting going on, i can see far-sighted general & flag officers agreeing to that.

When those transports were starting to get attacked, the commanders would have turned them to neutral areas that would hopefully not come under attack.

It's why we had in our campaign alot of dependents evaced to Ireland. but we also had alot of people who got stuck in the rear areas...

[Abbott Shaull]

Wasn't the Jutland Division in XI US Corps, in northern Poland in 2000 That's roughly a quarter of the Danish Army.

Not sure I recall where they were before the start of the offensive. I do know they were heading back home over the fact that French troops had entered German territory...

[pmulcahy11b]

It seems to me that the run up to the war would be slow enough for US, British, and Canadian (and I guess French, in some cases), as well as embassy personnel dependents, to get them out of their posted countries in time. The sole exception may be Poland and Berlin.

That's assuming that the DIA, ISA, CIA, and State Department are properly on their toes (or whatever agencies are the equivalents in other countries).

As for European dependents, they'll probably draw back to whatever countries they are from, unless they have no choice (such as Germany and Poland).

I did once play an NPC as a GM who had been in Poland at the time of invasion and had been there ever since. Kind of interesting drawing up a 15-year old girl who had to learn on the fly, and who clearly didn't look like a local (her parents were of Asian ancestry, though she was American).

[Rainbow Six]

Wasn't the Jutland Division in XI US Corps, in northern Poland in 2000 That's roughly a quarter of the Danish Army.

Rostock in Eastern Germany is ringing a bell with me. I think that might have been mentioned in Going Home, although there might be a discrepancy between where the player handout intel assesment said they were and where they actually are. It does definitely say somewhere that they end up repatriating themselves back to Danish territory at some point - it can only be Going Home or the NATO vehicle guide.

On the topic of evacuations, I'm fairly sure that from a British and US (and presumably Canadian) perspective this would have kicked in when the reinforcements started heading across the English Channel / Atlantic respectively. I'm going from memory but I think the reinforcements start arriving after the West Germans cross the IGB but before UK, US, and Canadian units get involved, so there's nearly two months for all military and embassy dependents to be evacuated. IMO that's more than enough time to get everyone out of the War zone and safely home.

With regard to non military dependents, e.g. tourists, business people, ex pats. etc, I'm not so sure. Would Governments evacuate them on the same transports that are taking military families home, or would they need to to make their own way, which could prove problematic One would imagine most scheduled flights in and out of West Germany would most likely be cancelled (I can't see British Airways or United flying sked services in and out of Frankfurt in between air raids), so I could see lots of people ending up in France, Holland, and Belgium trying to get flights or ferries home...(for anyone who saw the news coverage of the ash cloud in Europe earlier this year, I think we could see similar scenes). Therefore I think it's possible some of these people might potentially still be in the War zone at the start of December.

Whilst non essential Embassy staff would probably be included in the dependent evacuation, essential staff would, presumably, have to stay until the fighting actually started and then take their chances (they may get some protection under the Vienna Convention).

[helbent4]

The typical pattern for Canadians as of late is to put off doing anything, then using civilian transport (leased, rented, etc.). As this is a deliberate act of war, and not a sudden crisis, I think the USA and Canada (and the UK) would have elaborate (too elaborate) plans to evac dependents.

Tony

[Rainbow Six]

The typical pattern for Canadians as of late is to put off doing anything, then using civilian transport (leased, rented, etc.). As this is a deliberate act of war, and not a sudden crisis, I think the USA and Canada (and the UK) would have elaborate (too elaborate) plans to evac dependents.

Tony

I always presumed that there was a fair likliehood that the transport that brought the troops in would take the dependents out, particularly for the North Americans, who would be flying.

For the UK there was more of an emphasis on using cross channel ferries as the UK had no equivalent of POMCUS, so the BAOR's UK based reinforcements had to take all of their vehicles with them.

Again for the UK, I'd think there would also be the possibility of chartered Eurostar trains taking dependents home through the Channel Tunnel (they'd have to transit France, but I can't see where the French could object to civilians passing through their territory).

[Abbott Shaull]

What always got to me was the POMCUS seemed to be geared for Armored Divisions, while none of the Divisions that were suppose to come from the mainland immediately had all of their components actives or had Brigade posted forwards already...

So it seems regardless if it was by designed or because how a military conflict would developed in Germany, it seems to me that very few US Divisions would have made the transition from the US to Germany intact. The exception of these would be the 82nd and 101st Division if they were transferred to Europe and not elsewhere.

Even when National Guard and Reserve units had started to transfer over with their 'equipment' these would be the first units that would stand a chance of being sent to the front as a complete unit. Depending on how much equipment and manpower was sank and/or shot down. Many of these units may have been consolidated and the Divisions pieced together to come up with complete operational Divisions or if they could complete the Division the unit would be used to bring other Divisions that were in battle up to strength...

Just some thoughts on that subject..

[Fusilier]

The typical pattern for Canadians as of late is to put off doing anything, then using civilian transport (leased, rented, etc.).

LOL. Isn't that the truth. Maxo Relaxo.

[dragoon500ly]

I always presumed that there was a fair likliehood that the transport that brought the troops in would take the dependents out, particularly for the North Americans, who would be flying.

For the UK there was more of an emphasis on using cross channel ferries as the UK had no equivalent of POMCUS, so the BAOR's UK based reinforcements had to take all of their vehicles with them.

Again for the UK, I'd think there would also be the possibility of chartered Eurostar trains taking dependents home through the Channel Tunnel (they'd have to transit France, but I can't see where the French could object to civilians passing through their territory).

Went looking through some old records and found the dependent evacuation plan for the 2ACR. Now the regiment was forward deployed within 80km of the inter-german border:

Upon the squadron moving out for its forward battle positions, dependents were to remain in their quarters until the MPs brought buses around to evac the families with one suitcase each. Said suitcase was to be loaded with at least 3 days of clothing, bottled water and 3 days of MREs. The buses would take the dependents back to regimental headquarters in Nuremburg where they would board a train routed to Frankfurt for another bus trip to Rhien-Main air base. The intention was to load the dependents onto any commerical or military flight going back to the States.

As can be seen, there were several holes in this, bus-train-bus-airplane. We were always assured that the Polizei-MPs would escort the dependents throughout the movement, but with Warsaw Pact aircraft going after communications hubs and bridges...Spetsnaz and Desants in the rear areas and their divisions launching a full scale attack

[pmulcahy11b]

Upon the squadron moving out for its forward battle positions, dependents were to remain in their quarters until the MPs brought buses around to evac the families with one suitcase each. Said suitcase was to be loaded with at least 3 days of clothing, bottled water and 3 days of MREs. The buses would take the dependents back to regimental headquarters in Nuremburg where they would board a train routed to Frankfurt for another bus trip to Rhien-Main air base. The intention was to load the dependents onto any commerical or military flight going back to the States.

That actually doesn't sound much different from the plans my mother said they had in place in Germany back in 1962. My father was with a military intelligence detachment at a fairly non-clearance level (he lost his high-in-the-sky clearance when he married my mother, who is from Croatia, part of a communist country at the time), so where he would have been I don't know.

[dragoon500ly]

That actually doesn't sound much different from the plans my mother said they had in place in Germany back in 1962. My father was with a military intelligence detachment at a fairly non-clearance level (he lost his high-in-the-sky clearance when he married my mother, who is from Croatia, part of a communist country at the time), so where he would have been I don't know.

Looking over the evac plans, I think it would have been an utter nightmare, a lot of dependents would have been killed or left behind regardless of the best intentions.


It would also argue that sendin the dependents home early would have been a decision that our political leadership wouldn't make out of fear of provoking the Soviets.

Just pity the poor soldier who survives WWIII, only to find out his wife and kids died in an ambush on the bus on Day One....