Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

OT: Women on subs

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Good points. I don't really have a problem with retention/recruitment bonuses for specific trades (the RAF Regiment, my own branch of service, has been throwing them out pretty frequently, with the result that it was, last time I checked, I overmanned. Which is nice), but what I disagree with is the concept of infantry (or whatever trade takes your fancy) getting more privileges, better housing, more time off, etc than any other enlisted personnel. For officers, that's the way it's always been, and there is a general acceptance that that's how things work. I just think that a lot of skilled non-combat arms tradesmen will not take kindly to that suddenly becoming applied to their own place in the military, as compared to infantry, and may even start wondering if the civilian world is a better place to find employment.

    For myself, and most of my colleagues, we would have welcomed more pay and better housing. However, we didn't need it to make us stay in, or to attract the best recruits. We already felt we were better than those around us who hadn't been through the same training that we had, and who worked 9-5 jobs for the most part. I think that a lot of units create their own sense of elitism, and that it does work as a means of attracting and retaining the right kind of recruits.

    Of course, the caveat to all of this is that I have no indepth knowledge of how the US Army works, or what it's culture is like. I'm coming at this from the standpoint of not having seen a lack of quality amongst infantry, certainly not to the extent you suggest. But then, my experience is different to yours.

    As an aside, the British Army uses a personal fitness test similar to that of the US Army (press-ups, sit-ups and a 1.5 mile run in PT kit) plus a Combat Fitness Test which is 6-8 miles as a squad with CEMO, the exact time, distance and weights carried varying with arm. It's always been my experience that regardless of what your fitness test standard actually is, only doing the minimum gets you in lots of trouble.

    The RAF Regiment uses the biannual RAF Fitness Test, which is press-ups, sit-ups and a bleep test. They also add the annual ROFA, a 2 day event which consists of a CEMO march similar to the Army Infantry CFT, a speed march in CEFO, a dummy drag, a sprint carrying two jerry cans, and a bergen lift onto the back of a vehicle. They've been experimenting with modifying it, and we recently trialled the addition of another bleep test (higher standard required than the normal RAF one and no reductions for age), a swim test, pull-ups, and a fire and movement lane consisting of alternate sprinting and crawling for a set distance. The next year we went back to the old one, though I hear the improved version is still being worked on. Regardless, I always used to like the CEMO march. 8 miles was almost the exact distance from the Squadron buildings to the CS chamber, and thus it was always used as an opportunity to get our annual NBC testing in after the march....

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Webstral View Post
      As for second class, there's a difference between second class by inherent quality and second class by choice. The infantry ain't rocket science. Those who succeed and those who don't principally are divided by motivation, not by native intelligence. Traditionally, the infantry makes due with the folks who are left over after the more technical services take their pick. I wouldn't say that the US infantry is filled with rocks, but too many are doofuses who should be doing something else.

      Webstral
      Web, really, the days when infantrymen were a bunch of soldiers without the talent to do anything else were already gone by the time I enlisted -- as an infantryman in the National Guard -- in 1983. Using tactics takes brains, using modern infantry equipment takes brains, keeping a platoon or even a squad in working order logistically takes brains, knowing the weak points on enemy armor takes brains, etc, etc, etc. Being infantry requires just as much head work as any other MOS -- but not everyone can do it. I don't consider myself a doofus -- I have a BA in History with a respectable 3.07 GPA at graduation and an IQ of 145 plus or minus 5. I didn't know any stupid fellow infantrymen -- foolish maybe, but not flat out stupid. The idea of the "dumb grunt" is a misconception that in reality went away a long time ago.
      I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes

      Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
        Web, really, the days when infantrymen were a bunch of soldiers without the talent to do anything else were already gone by the time I enlisted -- as an infantryman in the National Guard -- in 1983. ... The idea of the "dumb grunt" is a misconception that in reality went away a long time ago.
        I've read of studies dating back to WW2 that said that lower IQ infantrymen tended to become casualties much more quickly than smarter ones, and that smarter infantrymen were much more combat-effective. The army adjusted several policies after that.
        My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.

        Comment


        • #79
          Paul, I want to give you the proper, well-considered response that you deserve. However, I have class tonight (or at least I'll be in the classroom), so last night and today are shot for anything but schoolwork. Yes, like so many others I find myself finishing my work at the eleventh hour. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you.

          Webstral

          P.S. The Eleventh Hour would be a good name for a pub or a tax services business, don't you think Or perhaps for putting together last-minute weddings with expanded-middle wedding gowns
          “We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.

          Comment


          • #80
            Cira 1973, Ft Eustis (Even Uncle Sam Thinks It Sucks) VA.
            I was an instructor at the Transportation School. I taught a 24-hour block of instruction to Movement Specialist and the SAME block to Stevedores. I had been at the school for about a year, having been medically reclassified from the Infantry where I had served for the better part of five years, with two tours under my belt. Any ways, this block was a MUST PASS to continue the course, or you were recycled back. I had this kid come in one class and failed the test. This was NOT all that uncommon, perhaps 2-3 per class did. So he's back in about two weeks again. He failed the SECOND time.. same OPEN BOOK test (it was documentation BTW). So the reclassified him to Stevedores. (About the only MOS below them was Laborer IMNSHO) Long story short... he failed test three AND four.. so they are going to reclassify him AGAIN.. to the INFANTRY. I went to the NCOIC of the section, wearing my CIB and ribbons. I told the Master Sergeant to NOT reclassify the kid to the Infantry. He asked me WHY NOT I flat told him it took BRAINS to stay alive and not get others killed... He just looked at me for a while and said.. "good point".. the kid was released as untrainable. I still feel that way..

            Intelligence and common sense go a LONG way in the Infantry, even back in the day. I was in during the draft era and Volar.. In my platoon in AIT we had a PhD, and two with Masters degrees, as well as several Bachelors.. Our platoon was KICK ASS AND TAKE NAMES LATER if I do say so myself. We were tasked by the Battalion Commander as a TEST platoon.. while everyone carried a rifle and butt pack, our platoon carried TOE rucks, radios, M60s, LAWS, Grenades, and 700 rounds of ammo (inert, but weighs the same), as well as two canteens, and three days c-rats, extra socks, bedroll (blanket and shelterhalf in poncho).. we doubletimed everywhere we went. There were no slackers in the platoon.. we were different and our attitude showed it... we trained when everyone else was in the beer garden... They called us names, and we laughed at them.. HARD CORE!!!! We had people from all walks of life.. in all sorts of shape at first, even after they had been in basic (we filled from three BCT stations that I know of), but EVERYONE was in top shape by end of cycle.. We did our six mile road march in 45 minutes over the ridges.. NOBODY in the platoon dropped out while other platoons were falling like flies... and we had 80+ pounds MORE than they did to carry.. If someone was having troubles with a concept.. they were helped by their peers..

            Now this is NOT to say all were happy campers, far from it, but we were the only platoon that had NO AWOLs that cycle, everyone was 80% plus on the PT test (which at the time was FIVE events culminating in a mile run... IN COMBAT BOOTS.. PT gear was T-shit, fatigue pants and combat boots, no running shoes and sweats need apply thank you very much.. You train how your going to fight... and I dont see anyone in tennies and shorts (except that kid in 'Stan in his pink boxers and flipflops LOL)

            I know, times have changed, but I think we were taught and tested on more stuff in that time than they do now... ie. First Aid was almost to Life Saver standards today and that was EVERYONE. I was involved in a first aid class in the late 70's and appalled they didn't even address a sucking chest wound. Comms were simpler, but more indepth.. we had demolitions, live fire of LAWS, a week on the '60, fired MaDuce and bloopers, as well as the .45 and the 'trusty' M-16 which was just coming on line (took BCT with the M14).. intensive land navigation, yada yada yada.. and it was ALL tested.. you fail you recycle... And testing was in week SIX and you recycled back to week ONE.. something NOBODY wanted... Everyone in my platoon graduated.. Six of the platoon went on to OCS.. and some payed the ultimate price in the shithole called Nam.

            Guess I got carried away.. sorry.. but I was an 11B and proud of it. And I was a volunteer RA, not a draftee. (Why would someone do that you ask.. hey, the INFANTRY to me is the ARMY.. the rest just support us.)

            Grae

            (getting extinguishers ready for the flames )

            IT takes more than a warm body to make an Infantryman.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Graebarde View Post
              Guess I got carried away.. sorry.. but I was an 11B and proud of it. And I was a volunteer RA, not a draftee. (Why would someone do that you ask.. hey, the INFANTRY to me is the ARMY.. the rest just support us.)

              Grae

              (getting extinguishers ready for the flames )

              IT takes more than a warm body to make an Infantryman.
              Damn straight!
              I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes

              Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com

              Comment


              • #82
                lol crunchy's
                "There is only one tactical principal which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
                --General George S. Patton, Jr.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Dog 6 View Post
                  lol crunchy's
                  I find it interesting that you're a DAT and you go by the screen name of "Dog6;" one of the nicknames of a 11B is "line doggie." You may be an infantryman at heart!
                  I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes

                  Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Dog 6 was my tanks call sign
                    "There is only one tactical principal which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
                    --General George S. Patton, Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I know that when I was in (early 90's), Infantry had the most METL (I think I have that acronym right - Mission Essential Task List) of any MOS in the Army. Cavalry Scouts (19D, that was me) weren't too far behind.

                      Lots of stuff to know as an infantryman, and even more as technology starts getting pushed down to the individual troop level.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Paul, I would never imply, much less say out loud, that you are of low intelligence, low motivation, or low accomplishment. I do respect your GPA and educational accomplishments, but I don"t need to know either fact to know that you are an articulate and thoughtful man whose ideas must be taken seriously.

                        Originally posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
                        Web, really, the days when infantrymen were a bunch of soldiers without the talent to do anything else were already gone by the time I enlisted -- as an infantryman in the National Guard -- in 1983. Using tactics takes brains, using modern infantry equipment takes brains, keeping a platoon or even a squad in working order logistically takes brains, knowing the weak points on enemy armor takes brains, etc, etc, etc. Being infantry requires just as much head work as any other MOS -- but not everyone can do it. I don't consider myself a doofus -- I have a BA in History with a respectable 3.07 GPA at graduation and an IQ of 145 plus or minus 5. I didn't know any stupid fellow infantrymen -- foolish maybe, but not flat out stupid. The idea of the "dumb grunt" is a misconception that in reality went away a long time ago.
                        Believe it or not, Paul, I think we are arguing the same thing. I think, though, I need to do some major clarifying before I earn myself the title of guy who looks down his nose at his own beloved infantry.

                        As I mean it, the term doofus is not interchangeable with stupid person or moron. By doofus, I mean person of questionable judgment, commitment, or conduct without adequate counterbalancing strengths. A doofus can be stupid, but he can also be very well-educated.

                        Grae, I couldn"t agree with you more. The infantry are special. We shouldn"t just let in anyone who can pass the PT test and manages to hit 23 (or is it 24) targets on the qualification range. Getting in the door should be harder, and staying should be harder.

                        Getting back to doofuswho do I mean I mean the kid who came to my unit and couldn"t follow any instructions. He was bounced from squad to squad because no one could get him to do what he needed to do without having a hand on the back of his shirt. I got him for a little while. In order to get him to drive the Hum-Vee, I had to verbally walk him through every step he was taking. Now put it in reverse. Yes, reverse. Yes, now. Right now, private. Put your hand on the levergood. Now put it in reverse. Good. Now back up. Yes, now I"m not kidding. He was a sweet kid, but he had no business being in the infantry. Luckily for us, he was sent to the headquarters company before his first opportunity for a firefight.

                        By doofus I mean the guy in my squad who left his sensitive items hanging off the end of his bunk but who had a five-pound bag of rice under lock and key in his footlocker. I corrected the individual behavior, but he had many more like it. He just didn"t get it.

                        By doofus I mean the guy in our platoon who was narcoleptic and couldn"t accept that he had a problem. We couldn"t fix the problem, and we couldn"t get rid of him. Eventually, he fell asleep standing up while on guard duty and was brought up on charges. We got lucky that hajji wasn"t on the move that night.

                        By doofus I mean both the driver of a Bradley and the TC who allowed the driver to deliberately run over the cars of Iraqi civilians because they were both mad about being in Iraq doing peacekeeping instead of killing people.

                        By doofus, I mean the guy who has to be roused from his bunk for everything. He drags his fourth point of contact for everything but the run to the snack truck. His team leader needs to police him up like a truculent child. Instead of being a team asset, this guy is a drain on the team because his team leader is hauling him around by the collar. When the team leader tries to get creative about motivating him, he threatens to file an EO complaint.

                        By doofus, I mean the guys who work to get a perfect 180 on their PT testsnot a point more, thank you. I would find that attitude suspect in any soldier, but in the infantry it should be unacceptable. Raising the bar by ten or twenty points doesn"t change the fact that the soldiers rising to that standard and no more are minimum-hunters. PT is not a matter of skill. It"s a matter of commitment and effort. Something as important as physical fitness is to a rifleman deserves more than the minimum.

                        I could go on and on about doofuses, but I"m sure everyone knows who I"m talking about now. I"m not talking about you, Paul, or any of the soldiers you hold in high esteem. If you introduced me to a colleague and told me he was a good troop, I"d take you at your word without further question. That much said, you know who I mean. If you haven"t served with some of them, I"d say you"re the luckiest rifleman on the planet. Even the Rangers and Special Forces have served with this guys, which is part of the reason some of the operators seek out the special units. They want something better, and they"re dissatisfied with the standard of the line infantry.

                        The guys I"m talking about are the bottom twenty percent. Call it the bottom ten percent, if you"ve served in a good unit. I"m talking about having enough guys wanting to get into the infantry so that maintaining headcount isn"t a factor in deciding whether or not to keep a doofus.

                        Paul, I couldn"t agree with you more that being in the modern infantry takes some intelligence. When I say that being a rifleman isn"t rocket science, I mean that you don"t have to be brilliant to be a serviceable rifleman. I"m very impressed that Grae"s group had lots of well-educated men. This is a favorable reflection on those men, not the standards of the Army. I"m sure there were some GEDs in that group, tooand I"ll bet many of them were just as good as the college boys. A rifleman doesn"t need brilliance, although if he does have an IQ of 145 it"s a promising signhe needs good judgment. Intelligence and judgment are not the same. There are plenty of people who are great in the lab or executing calculations who don"t have that special sense for the work of the infantry and never will. Some soldiers test for moderate intelligence and yet have that certain special something for warfare. Ideally, the infantry would get plenty of people with a high degree of intelligence and good judgment. If I had to choose between the two qualities, I"d choose good judgment. Good judgment can be learned, to some degree. Some people just will never get it. I"d like to see them sent to another MOS post-haste and have them replaced by soldiers who can be enticed into the special world of the rifles with tangible compensation for putting up with the conditions of service endured by the infantry. (Once they have their boots on the ground, they would hopefully see what so many others have mentionedthat the world of the rifles is special above and beyond pay and privileges.) I want to attract many more candidates and give the infantry the luxury of keeping a higher caliber of soldier.

                        Does this mean I think the infantry is no good as it is No. This is not a black-and-white issue where bad <oeol Webstral thinks everyone ought to rise to his lofty standards or be labeled as s***bags. This is about improving the force we have today. Our enemies include some highly motivated people. I want our successes to be even more overwhelming. I want our guys to triumph in any setting with any level of fire support. I want our line infantry to be so superior to anything that has gone before that they redefine the paradigm of what the infantry can accomplish. Equipment can help, but it"s the people who do the do. I want that bottom twenty percent to be median of the combat support and combat service support people so that every infantry formation can shine.

                        Other than that, though, I don"t care very much about the infantry or hold them in very high esteem.


                        Webstral
                        “We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Infantry vs cav vs arty

                          I read Grae s post about the US army in the draft days and found it interesting . We have a draft army ( still) and I have worked with a few "cycles" or platoons if you will.

                          The funny thing about intelligence is that it seems to be many things .Some guys come in with a Ph.D in classical languages,a penchance for sci fi space battle board games,and a chess kit in their suitcase -others come in in a beer stained Iron Maiden shirt and answer most questions with a "huh"

                          Still these two can vary hughely in who adapts better ,learns the new skills faster and handles themselves well.So called intelligence in one field does not translate easily into another .

                          We say the biggest difference is between practitioners and theoreticians.

                          As for slamming the arty guys -infantry,navy or whatever that sort of abuse is all in good spirit and for the fun of it .part of it shows that the instructors got through to you when they trained you and tried to slip some pride over your unit into you by dissing the other guys and praising your own.

                          All in my humble opinion of course - and written as plainly as I could so you infantry types would have a chance to follow

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            1 woman on a german sub

                            The actual german submarine U-32 has a woman onboard. She is a sonar operator and the only woman among 27 men.

                            I figured it might interest you to know about her treatment. She is simply considered as every other sailors. She shares her sleeping quarter with one of the men. While leaving harbor she is also the one taking care of dismounting what has to be taken out on the outer hull.

                            Thought it could interest you.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Mohoender View Post
                              The actual german submarine U-32 has a woman onboard. She is a sonar operator and the only woman among 27 men.

                              I figured it might interest you to know about her treatment. She is simply considered as every other sailors. She shares her sleeping quarter with one of the men. While leaving harbor she is also the one taking care of dismounting what has to be taken out on the outer hull.

                              Thought it could interest you.
                              Yeah , but is she hot or does she look like the Frankenstein montser I bet if she had a big old rack, round ass, and sexy face she wouldn't be one of the guys.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by waiting4something View Post
                                Yeah , but is she hot or does she look like the Frankenstein montser I bet if she had a big old rack, round ass, and sexy face she wouldn't be one of the guys.
                                Regular. If you have to compare her with the prostitute I can see around my place, she looks much better. Of course, subsailors I must more mentaly advanced than truckers and infantrymen.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X