Operation Proud Lion: T2K in Kenya

[Olefin]

No actually rounding out means things like adding a CID platoon to the MP battalion that Frank was going to have there or adding some reinforcements from Europe (a la what is going to the RDF), in this case a specific unit as well as having auxiliary groups and things Frank forgot like the Kenyan police units that are used for internal security that would be backing up the army.

Plus filling out info on stuff like the Army unit flying Skyraiders (that was Frank's idea originally I am fleshing it out) and the US recruiting from trapped Americans and others in the area to try to get replacements.

Keep in mind the US would be having ops in Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Somalia and the Sudan. Its not just one country but a large area. And I am including information on the whole area up to and including Djibouti - not a ton of detail but enough that you can use it to run a campaign if you wish.

I am bringing the M8 Bulldog "officially" into the game as well - should be there for sure. And incorporating real world events that post date V1 of the game but fit into the timeline for sure - like the Rwandan genocide as an event.

And fixing the French deployments in Djibouti to match reality and correct the error in the RDF where they left out a whole unit that has been there since the 1960's.

There will be references and material there from other GDW modules which I will give credit to - for instance I will be replicating the charts in the back of the RDF sourcebook (and citing that module as where they came from) for those who dont own that particular sourcebook for character creation.

Probably looking at 50+ pages by the time its all said and done - basically my idea of what Frank would have published if GDW hadnt abandoned the V1 timeline and went to MERC instead.

[Legbreaker]

I am bringing the M8 Bulldog "officially" into the game as well - should be there for sure.

"Officially"
Can anyone who was not involved in the original development honestly claim anything they do to be "official"
FYI, the M8 is already in 2.x which is really just an evolution of what started in 1.0. It first appeared in the Eastern Europe Sourcebook and later in the 2.2 BYB. Also, it's a Buford, not Bulldog. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...und/m8-ags.htm also, http://www.pmulcahy.com/best_stuff_t...never_were.htm

And fixing the French deployments in Djibouti to match reality and correct the error in the RDF where they left out a whole unit that has been there since the 1960's.

See my comments elsewhere for possible explanation why they may be absent and not necessarily "missed".

...Frank would have published if GDW hadnt abandoned the V1 timeline and went to MERC instead.

Err, what
T2K was not abandoned in favour of anything. Merc was simply an alternate universe using the same timeframe and rules as T2K. There were plenty of books published after Merc came out, and 2.0 itself came before Merc.

[Olefin]

actually yes we can claim it - notice I said "officially" i.e. in quotes

as in fan canon

and in the absence of any new information being officially put out thats as official as it gets

I will be sending the sourcebook to Far Future as well to see if they are interested in publishin it - who knows maybe they will

you dont have to use it Leg - frankly if no one does then they dont - thats their choice - but at least it will be out there for anyone who does want to use it.

[LAW0306]

OLEFIN, I published a draft a few years back and Frank came on here and said as far as i'm concerned this is Cannon now! Chico saved the post. It still did not sway leg. Just write whatt you think is cool send it to chico for edit. He is a world class guy I would give my life for. We know each other on a personal level and eat lunch together when i'm in town. Talk too him and he will make you better. He is the man in my opinion. I learned a long time ago fighting on here does no good and people are keyboard commando's ...turn the other cheeck edit before you send and treat all with respect even if they dont do it too you and you will go a long way here.

[Targan]

actually yes we can claim it - notice I said "officially" i.e. in quotes

"We" huh So who else are you speaking on behalf of then

and in the absence of any new information being officially put out thats as official as it gets

I've tried so hard not to comment on any of your posts lately Olefin but mate, I'm calling you out on this one. Your ego is musular well beyond the point of having a positive self image.

you dont have to use it Leg - frankly if no one does then they dont - thats their choice - but at least it will be out there for anyone who does want to use it.

I'll be sticking with Raellus' take on Kenya, thanks very much. You've got a good head for analysis Olefin and you're a pretty good writer but the way you've barged into this forum and (it seems like) set out to deliberately piss people off, I wouldn't touch any of your source material with a 10 foot pole. You're older than me so I'm surprised you haven't learned that sometimes you'll get further with people if you take a diplomatic approach. PMs be damned. If you're going to constantly mark your territory in open forum I'm abandoning all restraint with you.

[Tegyrius]

I will be sending the sourcebook to Far Future as well to see if they are interested in publishin it - who knows maybe they will

You say "Far Future" as if it's still an extant publishing company... rather than a legal entity existing solely to hold the rights to properties on which all work is being held in indefinite abeyance.

Do you have any prior experience in dealing with publishing companies, whether in this "industry" (read: "subsidized hobby") or otherwise

- C.

[Olefin]

we - as in we's like Chico with what he has done with the DC working group, Mr. Mulcahy with the great work he has done, etc..

on things like the various guides that are fan canon that have been published on the Mexican, Pole and Czech Armies

like the Survivors Guide to the UK that Rainbow is working on

they are as "official" as it can get unless we can get someone interested in doing official publishing again on the game

as for Far Future - as Chico pointed out to me they still own the rights to the game - as such I think I have to at least email them and credit them as the people who own the rights on the sourcebook to keep everything on the up and up. And you never know - maybe one day they may decide to do something with Twilight 2000.

Oh and Targan - my source material for Kenya is the posts that Frank Frey put up on various threads here as to notes for that area. So if you dont want to touch it with a ten foot pole then you have to reject Raellus as well since its the same material he used to build what he has.

As for comments on my ego and what I post I have talked to one of the other moderators here and been told that there is no issue with what I have done so far.

And yes I am new here - but boards need new blood to stimulate discussion and new threads. As for your other comments Targan I will follow the board policy and make no reply to them.

[Targan]

Oh and Targan - my source material for Kenya is the posts that Frank Frey put up on various threads here as to notes for that area. So if you dont want to touch it with a ten foot pole then you have to reject Raellus as well since its the same material he used to build what he has.

Get back to me after Mr Frey has returned to this forum and publicly given your work his endorsement as he did with Raellus' work. You didn't even have to decency to suggest collaborating with Raellus, you just put forward your newly written work as an alternative product. Yeah, you're going to win a whole bunch of friends that way, for sure.

[Olefin]

Actually what I am doing and what Raellus is doing are alternate versions of Kenya and thus both represent ways that Kenya can be looked at.

He has taken one approach and I have taken another.

I am looking at a wider area and a different US approach than he is. Both are based on what Frank put up here as his notes as to the base units and the enemy units. From there they diverge into different approaches.

And when the time comes to have it ready I will send it to Frank Frey and see what he says and will wecome his comments. And also Raellus comments as well as those of others here. I have already made changes based on the few things I have posted about it from comments and input.

Simonmark6 has helped a lot with it with his great idea for the British Lions nd I will fully credit him for that. And Raellus idea of a Tanzanian invasion will also be credited by me as its a great idea,done differently by both of us, which is great - the more ideas the better.

As for my saying its official - Raellus's Kenya is also official. So is anyone else who comes up with a good idea for Kenya. In lieu of a publishing authority to say what he real timeline or real module is all are equally official.

Some may like my version, some may like Raellus, some may like neither or combine both into something new.

Hopefully both of them will find acceptance and maybe will be used for campaigns in the future.

And I am not here to win friends, just discuss the game. So far this forum has been a great place to be. Because of it I am playing the game again as of this week after a long absence.

[Legbreaker]

And I am not here to win friends...

That is painfully obvious to us all.

[Olefin]

"That is painfully obvious to us all. "

Since when did you represent the views of everyone on the forum Leg.

LAW said nothing of the sort that I am doing anything wrong here. So have others. Obviously some dont feel as you do.

[Legbreaker]

Perhaps you should start listening to the Moderators then, hmm

[Olefin]

I have Leg - I was told directly by a moderator this afternoon that what I was posting was per board policy and there was no issue at all with any of the threads I had posted or in my approach to the board.

So yes I have listened to a moderator.

[Webstral]

A little bit of oversensitivity goes a long way towards bruised feelings all around, whether one is new or an old hand.

I agree that some fresh ideas are an excellent thing. Many of the people who used to provide new material, like me, are too occupied with other responsibilities to do much writing. (How I'd love to get back to "The Storm in Germany"!) It's good to have some new voices and new ideas.

That much said, we all ought to have a look at how James conducts himself. His ideas are well-considered and well-presented. He accepts feedback graciously. He's willing to modify his work to reflect feedback. He shows a positive attitude. It's really an impressive show. I wish we'd had him in the old days when we were trying to build a common vision.

It's fine not to like certain aspects of the published material. The Howling Wilderness horse is dead, my friends. Those of us who dont dig Howling Wilderness dont require further convincing that there are problems with it. Those of us who prefer Howling Wilderness arent amenable to new arguments that it needs fixing, given all of the discussion that has taken place on the subject over the years. Certainly, those who prefer Howling Wilderness more-or-less as it is arent going to change their minds when presented with an argument salted with oeThats stupid. Theres plenty of room for a factual review of the holes in the timeline, disappearing reinforcements, and the like without anybodys feelings getting involved.

Everyone has their feelings about Howling Wilderness and the published materials. I have a wife and two young children, so I get plenty of drama at home. When Im teaching, I have classrooms filled with tweens, so I get plenty of drama at work. I keep the company of men on the Internet to avoid the drama. Lets not get spun up over whose ideas are more logically consistent or more likely to win favor from Frank Frey. In all likelihood, Frank is steering clear of us because he doesnt need the drama, either.

[pmulcahy11b]

OLEFIN, I published a draft a few years back and Frank came on here and said as far as i'm concerned this is Cannon now! Chico saved the post. It still did not sway leg. Just write whatt you think is cool send it to chico for edit. He is a world class guy I would give my life for. We know each other on a personal level and eat lunch together when i'm in town. Talk too him and he will make you better. He is the man in my opinion. I learned a long time ago fighting on here does no good and people are keyboard commando's ...turn the other cheeck edit before you send and treat all with respect even if they dont do it too you and you will go a long way here.

I suspect everyone here picks, chooses, and modifies as necessary. So what if your game strays from canon a bit. Suppose it makes sweeping changes to canon. It's a game. If a good time is had by all, who cares