Sniper teams

[copeab]

Okay, so a six-man team isn't that stealthy because it's not supposed to be that stealthy (at least relative to, say, a one or two man team) because it just doesn't have the same mission as a two-man team (where stealth may the the most important thing)

[copeab]

Personally, i'd go with up to 4 regular players/posters than a larger group of 6 where you have passengers.

I have no problem running NPCs with a party, so using NPCs to fill out a team is no big deal to me. However, if I start getting too attached to a regular (rather than recurring) NPC, it's time for the NPC to leave or die.

[HorseSoldier]

Okay, so a six-man team isn't that stealthy because it's not supposed to be that stealthy (at least relative to, say, a one or two man team) because it just doesn't have the same mission as a two-man team (where stealth may the the most important thing)

Yeah, basically. The big team is the right tool for some current missions in urban terrain especially. don't know that it would be a common organization in the T2K game world where population densities are lower and military attitudes towards civilian populations are different.

[Abbott Shaull]

A six man sniper team seems a bit bloated but take in consideration operational conditions it not surprising. I was surprise that they didn't have such large teams assigned to Europe, but I am sure the learning curve would of pointed this out real quickly. I can still see in some circumstances where the sniper and spotter will operate well in advance of the rest of team. Mainly for stealth, the team move a point where the rest of team provide security while the sniper and spotter move stealthy to take out their target and move back. On the plus side, if the team happen to make a chance contact to or from this point it has more of chance of breaking contact.

It is one of the things that the Marine Snipers teams were/are suppose to act as scout too, so bring the team to 6 members makes sense. Not the most profitable use of a sniper team, but hey use your asset economically.

On the other hand in the t2k world. With everything in the hand basket, most teams would be used sniper/scout roles. Which could lead to an element having a 6 man team, like I said that at least in Europe many teams would be bloated due the number of built up areas the fighting would have taken place at. For the most part I still see many of the sniper teams being down to 2 men. I do see at the squad level or platoon level having a designated marksmen with battle rifles instead of the standard assault rifle/carbine.

Just some thoughts.

[HorseSoldier]

On the other hand in the t2k world. With everything in the hand basket, most teams would be used sniper/scout roles. Which could lead to an element having a 6 man team, like I said that at least in Europe many teams would be bloated due the number of built up areas the fighting would have taken place at. For the most part I still see many of the sniper teams being down to 2 men. I do see at the squad level or platoon level having a designated marksmen with battle rifles instead of the standard assault rifle/carbine.

Just some thoughts.

With radios scarce and fire support less responsive most places I could see two man sniper teams being kept closer to supporting units, or if sniper teams are being sent out making them bigger in the T2K world.

DMRs are probably something that people want circa 2000, though I'm not sure how much motivation there'd be for fielding them during the pre-nuclear phase of the war most places. In a lot of conventional fights, a Bradley's 25mm and similar weapons can cover DMR tasks for mechanized units.

When that sort of firepower dwindling after the nuclear exchange, and conventional fighting being increasingly supplemented with low intensity operations against marauders, partisans and whatnot, I can see DMRs becoming a higher value item. What form that would take for US troops with supply lines disrupted is an interesting question -- some of the last drafts of troops arriving from the US might have been at least partially equipped with M14s, so maybe some of those get pressed into the DMR role, perhaps with locally copied versions of the M21 scope mounting system, or pieces of rail allowing use of whatever number of ACOGs were available in theater, etc.

[Webstral]

I firmly agree with others that sniper-based teams of whatever size are going to take on increasing importance in the Twilight: 2000 world. Extensive use of them is made in Arizona, principally in a defensive mode but also in the offensive mode (principally on the part of SAMAD's LRS). The open areas of southern Arizona lend themselves to surveillance and control by small teams with accurate, long-range firepower. The Green Jackets of Vermont, on the other hand, use their snipers much more aggressively. Patrols pre-emptively go outside the Green Zone looking for marauders to eliminate. The Black Watch of southern Vermont uses its snipers more in a marksman role, although a few riflemen can execute the other aspects of sniping. The Granite Brigade of Manchester, NH uses its snipers mostly for defensive surveillance, although most of these guys would love to get outside the wire more. The Maritime Rifles of USCG First District also tend to emphasize the defensive use of snipers, although like the Green Jackets they will infiltrate enemy territory to identify and attack high-value targets. The Gunryo in Nevada, on the other hand, uses its bare handful of real snipers almost exclusively in the offensive mode, attacking marauders and insurgents within the Shogun's territory after they have been located. Blue Two of the US Navy's operation in San Francisco Bay uses its snipers in an offensive/law enforcement role in which the snipers respond to developing crises.

Webstral

[Mock26]

The Hollywood of it is snipers are cool, but in reality the spotter needs to be at least as skilled a shooter, since besides target detection he's also the one making wind calls and the other real technical aspects of sniping. (Or as one SOTIC instructor in my old unit put it, you can teach ani chimp to pull the trigger in a week, competent spotters are much, much harder to train.)

I once saw a program about snipers and they were going over training for (if I remember correctly) British snipers. Part of that training included spotting 20 or so ordinary objects placed at varying distances, things like a spoon or a candy wrapper and such.

[Abbott Shaull]

With radios scarce and fire support less responsive most places I could see two man sniper teams being kept closer to supporting units, or if sniper teams are being sent out making them bigger in the T2K world.

DMRs are probably something that people want circa 2000, though I'm not sure how much motivation there'd be for fielding them during the pre-nuclear phase of the war most places. In a lot of conventional fights, a Bradley's 25mm and similar weapons can cover DMR tasks for mechanized units.

When that sort of firepower dwindling after the nuclear exchange, and conventional fighting being increasingly supplemented with low intensity operations against marauders, partisans and whatnot, I can see DMRs becoming a higher value item. What form that would take for US troops with supply lines disrupted is an interesting question -- some of the last drafts of troops arriving from the US might have been at least partially equipped with M14s, so maybe some of those get pressed into the DMR role, perhaps with locally copied versions of the M21 scope mounting system, or pieces of rail allowing use of whatever number of ACOGs were available in theater, etc.

As for lack of communications, well not too many snipers when they went it alone worried too much about asking for permission to pull the trigger, and for the pointed end of the stick, they probably prefer not to have some asking what the hell they are doing at all hours of the day....

I would agree the DMR isn't something that you would see in the Mechanized/Armored units, but the Light Infantry/Light Motorized would find good use for them.

As for the Rifles being used, well for in Europe whatever the unit can get hold of. I can see Korea and the Airborne/Air Assault in the Middle East already getting the share of M14s that could be sent for DMR before many trickle into Europe.

[waiting4something]

This is it exactly. The Spotter is the more senior and experienced member of the team.

When I was in military, the sniper was the senior member that had gone though and passed scout sniper school. The spotter was the junior guy that a lot of times had not gone through or completed the school and was just a referred to as a scout or PIG( precision instructed gunman). But this was also before they got big into urban sniping and hanging out in larger teams. Has it really changed that much

[copeab]

When I was in military, the sniper was the senior member that had gone though and passed scout sniper school. The spotter was the junior guy that a lot of times had not gone through or completed the school and was just a referred to as a scout or PIG( precision instructed gunman). But this was also before they got big into urban sniping and hanging out in larger teams. Has it really changed that much

The show I was watching said that the team leader was either the sniper or the spotter, which suggests it varies by team.

[Adm.Lee]

I just read (~two weeks ago) a book on US Marine snipers ("HOGs in the shadows") and one by a British Army sniper ("Sniper one"), both in Iraq in the 2003-2004 period. Both used two-man teams, and the spotter and shooter traded off a lot. The HOGs book said that usually the team leaders were definitely graduates of the scout-sniper schools, while the juniors might or might not have done so.

The British, interestingly, also sent their sniper platoon out on patrols, much as any other line platoon. That meant the whole platoon, or a significant chunk of it-- usually some teams were back on the roof of their base. That may have been a result of the posting of the battalion's support company (mortar platoon, sniper platoon, recon platoon) as a discrete deployment, rather than dividing it up among the line companies of the battle group.

[Abbott Shaull]

I seen the one on sniper teams from UK on the History Channel. As I recall for at least Marine Commando Sniper teams they both had to pass the training. The senior man was the Team Leader, but best shot usually was the sniper while the other did spotting.

Both had to be trained snipers for two reason. To be able to move in and positions without giving themselves away. The spotter having training as sniper and use of the entire weapon system would be better able to give accurate information from the spotter scope to sniper to get a hit.

[waiting4something]

The reason for spotters and snipers trading off is usually from what I have read is from fatigue setting in fast. You can't stay mentally or physcally alert for long periods of time when nothing is happening, and they have to take turns getting some shut eye too. From what I remember the spotter usually carried the radio and a M203. The sniper had the M40A1. As a rule in the infantry the junior guys always get the job to carry the heavier or extra shit(hello radio). I felt sorry for them when they had to carry the SASR and the ammo for it.

[Webstral]

...and for the pointed end of the stick, they probably prefer not to have some asking what the hell they are doing at all hours of the day....

Ain't that the truth! Bored NCOs (not to be confused with NCOs doing their jobs) are the bane of a soldier's non-combat existence. I know the US Army meant well by altering the battalion TO&E to include a staff sergeant major (as opposed to the command sergeant major) for the purpose of improving career progression. However, the handful I've seen have not impressed me. I've seen too many pointless ass-chewings of Joe when Joe was going about his business, basically squared away. I watched the 4-64 AR SGM quiz a Joe who came through the line of fire for literally ten minutes until he found something Joe didn't know. Then Joe got his head bitten off. War is hard enough without that garbage.

To be fair, the same SGM established a system whereby the watch towers of the FOB were visited sporadically and without warning to ensure the sentries were doing their jobs. It was a staff sergeant performing these rounds that discovered our resident narcoleptic asleep at his post. That needed to be done, and the battalion sergeant major was the one who made it happen.

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

So are you saying that the Sergeant Major at Battalion level is no longer considered a Command Sergeant Major, or did they give Master Sergeant slot a promotion