Mechanized Squad Changes

[kalos72]

So I have found many different numbers as to the size of a squad of Infantry in the US. Are squads designed around the vehicle intended to carry them

IE - M2A3 carries a 7 man squad vs an LAV-25 carries an 8 man squad

That must suck logistically no

[Eddie]

No, they're not.

In the Army, all squads are 9 men, they might just get broken into multiple tracks.

In the Marines, they're 13 strong (3 fire teams and a squad leader), and I assume they get broken up across multiple vehicles as well.

[kalos72]

Ok so then if the squad is 9 men, the M2A3 carries 7, that means each squad needs 2 M2A3 to carry them Or are they considered crew of the vehicle as well when mounted

7 as passengers
2 as crewman (gunner and...)

Side note: That Fort Know PDF you linked to me, perhaps I am missing something there but doesn't page B-20 or 89 of the Adobe show only 7

[Eddie]

Ok so then if the squad is 9 men, the M2A3 carries 7, that means each squad needs 2 M2A3 to carry them Or are they considered crew of the vehicle as well when mounted

7 as passengers
2 as crewman (gunner and...)

No, they're not part of the crew. Crew consists of the driver, gunner and the Bradley Commander.

The three dismount squads will divide amongst the four tracks in the platoon based on mission and experience and skill levels of the NCOs more than anything else. You don't want to put a weak team leader in the track without the squad leader if you can avoid it, but that is where the art of leadership trumps the science of it.

Side note: That Fort Know PDF you linked to me, perhaps I am missing something there but doesn't page B-20 or 89 of the Adobe show only 7

Just to make sure we're on the same page, you have the FEB 08 dated version, yes On page B-20 I have the IBCT Rifle company.

You're talking about the section in the top right hand corner, (X9) Rifle Squad Para 03, right

Rewrite that in your brain to be:

9 x Rifle Squads, Paragraph 03 (of the official MTOE document)

6 x SSG 11B3G (SQUAD LEADER) C
3 x SSG 11B3O (SQUAD LEADER) C
9 x SGT 11B2O (FIRE TEAM LEADER) C
9 x SGT 11B2G (FIRE TEAM LEADER) C
18 x SP4 11B1O (AUTO RIFLEMAN) SAW
18 x SP4 11B1O (GRENADIER) C
18 x PFC 11B1O (RIFLEMAN) C

The G behind the numbers means they're Ranger tabbed without Airborne.

Add the 6 + 3 + 9 + 9 + 18 + 18 + 18 = 81. 81/9 = 9 man squads.

The color-coding is not to insult your intelligence. A Major sat me and my four fellow company commanders down and gave us a class on how to read an MTOE at my last unit. It's not an easy thing to grasp. This one is easier than a pure document though, the Armor School made it a lot easier for people with this product.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Eddie has far more experience, but I found these two pdfs in the ToE yahoo group

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

first one is ToE for a Bradley infantry battalion under force 21 structure. (could be the same pdf that Eddie sent you already)

the second pdf is a ToE for M113 infantry battalion.

as far as LAV-25s, are you referring to real world USMC LAV-25 battalions, or the T2k world LAV-25 battalions that are assigned to the 9th Motorized and the Light Infantry Divisons

the USMC guys (jester, et al) can go into better detail regarding USMC LAVs.

Not sure how a squad would break down in a T2k Army LAV equiped unit. Maybe similar to how they break down for Bradleys (1 fireteam per LAV plus crew)

[Eddie]

That BFV (XX1).pdf looks fairly accurate, but there are some things I'd be careful about. It looks like it dumbs down some things and is a little inaccurate with a couple others. Scouts are 11-series, not 19-series, something else multiplied the squad leader by 4, but it'll work for your purposes, I think, kalos. Besides, you just want a guide, right Or you can continue using the Fort Knox Special.

[kalos72]

Holy crap that color coding makes it SO much easier...lol. Now it makes sense. :P

The copy I have is June 07...but it gives me alot more information then I had before. Thanks.

I can get any of those links from Yahoo...and I will be dammed if I get an account just to view them.

Thanks guys...

[Eddie]

No problem. Happy to help.

[Eddie]

Another thing to consider, you keep saying M2A3, but the A3 wasn't around in time for the Twilight War. I don't know if you're fudging it or if the modules accelerated it, but just something to think about as well. It would have still been the M2A2 (ODS) version.

((Coincidentally, I just graduated from the M2A2 (ODS) Mechanized Leader's Course in July, and the M2A3 Mechanized Leader's Course 13 AUG. 3rd ID still haven't received their A3s yet.))

[kalos72]

I was using that as a vehicle carrying 7 men instead of the Stryker's 9. Would the total number of vehicles assigned to the platoon change based on the type of vehicle

The M113 holds 11...meaning you would only need 3 to carry 3 squads.

Or would you bump the number of squads perhaps

[Eddie]

Remember, you chastised me for remembering the setting. Now it's my turn for you to do the same.

I would say that both would be reduced but personnel needs drive equipment needs.

You really don't want to drop a squad below 7. It's possible to do it, but problematic to say the least. 7-11 is a good number, with 9 being ideal. If you can't reach that minimum, start consolidating bodies. If you go over, start adding more squads.

As far as vehicles, I told you that I had 28 assigned and 20-22 present at any given time...what I left out was that I had 3 ICV Strykers, 3 ATGM Strykers, 1 FSV Stryker, 1 MRAP, and 2 Humvees assigned to my platoon.

At any given time, we'd only roll in 3 vehicles, preferably the ICVs, barring special circumstances. Next in priority was the FSV, then the MRAP, then the ATGMs. The Humvees never left the main FOB, much less our JSS.

[kalos72]

Assuming I still had 9 man squads then....

One unit using Styker's...
One unit using M113...

I am using Styker's to make it easier for me to follow on your PDF... :P

[HorseSoldier]

I don't know if you're fudging it or if the modules accelerated it, but just something to think about as well. It would have still been the M2A2 (ODS) version.

Or even A-Zero Bradleys, which would have probably been a big part of the fleet if we hand't seen a post-Cold War draw down in force strength, I suspect.

The M113 holds 11...meaning you would only need 3 to carry 3 squads.

Here's a link to FM7-7 which is the field manual for M113 mechanized infantry under the mid-80s MTOE's which would probably have been in effect for any units still equipped with 113s for actual infantry use during the Twilight War.

It is different than FM7-7J which covered the Bradley mech infantry platoon and squad in some ways, owing to the different capabilities of the two vehicles (including seating).

Basically, under the J series (most recent MTOE at the time) organization, and M113 squad was nine men, including a two man vehicle crew. Under the earlier H series organization the squad had two extra guys -- a dedicated M60 MG team.

[Legbreaker]

I can remember squeezing 14 men with full packs, etc into the back of an Australian M113. With the addition of a small one man turret, practical seat capacity is reduced to just nine very close friends. Those five extras made it extremely "cosy".

[Targan]

Another thing to consider, you keep saying M2A3, but the A3 wasn't around in time for the Twilight War. I don't know if you're fudging it or if the modules accelerated it, but just something to think about as well. It would have still been the M2A2 (ODS) version.

The designations in the T2K vehicle guides might well be in error compared to current real world designations. I'm no expert and could be completely wrong though. One example that stands out in my memory is the T2K M1A2 Abrams "Giraffe", a vehicle that was never fielded in RL (in terms of that unmanned main gun turret). There ended up being an M1A2 in RL didn't there Just a very different looking vehicle.