Odds and ends.

[Rockwolf66]

well from the US vehicle guide the 5th Mech ID started out with somewhere between 2,500 and 3,499 men and 40 abrams tanks.
It's hard to belive that only 500 men and one tank survied the battle of Kalis. I would thnk that there would be alot more survivors and from the fluff text the 5th mauled the Soviet army they fought.

[Dog 6]

maybe one of the mod's could dig up the past thread or 3 about this

[atiff]

well from the US vehicle guide the 5th Mech ID started out with somewhere between 2,500 and 3,499 men and 40 abrams tanks.
It's hard to belive that only 500 men and one tank survied the battle of Kalis. I would thnk that there would be alot more survivors and from the fluff text the 5th mauled the Soviet army they fought.

I did a storyline simulation of the battles that led to the 5th's destruction, as lead-up info for my future games. I started with Graebeard's OOB, and then followed the basic plot of the storyline, adding casualties as it went along. As this is my own work, it's not canon numbers, but what I ended up with was:

Total initial strength 6,600 Combat troops initial strength approx. 2,600
July 18, 0001 hrs 4,471 Combat troops July 18, 0001 hrs 973*

* includes 86 survivors from 256th Brigade that fled south of Lask on July 16.

So as of the final attack at Kalisz, I ended up with only about 900 "combat troops" defending Kalisz, with over 3,000 in rear area services behind them. "Combat troops" I defined as troops of the front line companies of the three brigades (i.e., not HQ/support troops from battalion, brigade or division).

From this point forward, my feeling was a lot of the rear-area troops would end up surrendering (esp. to 10th Polish TD). I figured perhaps 1,500 total men (about 1/3 of July 18, 0001 strength) would get away, with perhaps one third of these being "combat troops".

Draw from that what you will.

[Dog 6]

imho every one would be a "combat troop" in a situation like the 5th found its self in. as for surrendering I don't think that would be even an option after the beating the 5th gave out. i.e. stand and die or run .


imo 500-600 men , 2-4 tanks and 20-30 assorted AFV's in small groups would have gotten out of the line of fire, as to how long they would have lasted after that day idk.

[Legbreaker]

We know that the Abrams of one of the brigades had nothing but fumes in their tanks and no reserve. Although they obliterated a Soviet unit on the road below, it's unlikely any of them escaped (but possible enough was scavenged to get one moving a mile or two).
I can't say if any other tanks were involved anywhere in the battle (away from books).

[atiff]

imho every one would be a "combat troop" in a situation like the 5th found its self in.

I don't disagree. When I did the activity of running through the battles, I just wanted to get a handle on how different groups of troops were affected, so categorized them for easier reference.

as for surrendering I don't think that would be even an option after the beating the 5th gave out. i.e. stand and die or run.

IMO, easy to say, harder to see happening in 'reality'. People will do funny things when staring down the barrel of an AK / DShK / T55 I think many would attempt to surrender, given the choice of that or near-certain death. Surviving the surrender attempt is another matter entirely.

I do agree that, depending on how bloody-minded the Poles and Soviets were, a lot of 5 ID was going to depart the mortal coil on July 18...

[Rockwolf66]

well having taken a look at my copy of going home. Apparently the survivors of the 5th, really do take a nasty chunk out of the 4th army.The 4th army numbers in the 2.2 rulebook are straight out of the escape from Kalis book. Going home indicates that after the battle the various soviet units take even more casualties and the remaining larger units have absorbed smaller units. The story I am working on is just after the battle of Kalis and the 5th is trying to prevent the soviets from trying to get their shit together.

[Legbreaker]

From memory there's a reference in the Excape from Kalisz scenario indicating Polish and Soviet units enter into armed conflict over resources in the days immediately following the destruction of the 5th. That action is likely to have a direct impact on the Going Home numbers.

[Rockwolf66]

well right now I am going over the 5th division OOB page and looking at the first 1984-1992 OOB and extrapolating from there although I don't have the resources to print out the pre-Kalis OOB just yet but I will be looking into it for inspiration although several units seem to be made up for the game rather than having a basis in reality.

[HorseSoldier]

I don't see anything recognizable as 5th ID surviving the fight -- no support, limited ETOH fuel versus Pact forces running on gasoline. Stragglers in small groups is entirely plausible.

[Rockwolf66]

well looking at the 4th army OOB pre- Kalis the 5th was outnumbered 7 to 1 and running on fumes while the russians had full tanks of gas. Still the 5th managed to give the Russians 4x the casualties.

You are right in saying that there is no 5th division left. As far as the scattered units go their command will vary with the units.

[pmulcahy11b]

You are right in saying that there is no 5th division left. As far as the scattered units go their command will vary with the units.

As Their Scattered Bodies Go...

Sorry, your post reminded me of the title of a book I once read.

[Rockwolf66]

As Their Scattered Bodies Go...

Sorry, your post reminded me of the title of a book I once read.

Not to worry, you arn't the only mentally ill person i know. There's myself (Aspergers Syndrome), my favorite politician(If I remember correctly she has the same sort of mental illness you do) and a friend who had his brain scrambled when a soccermom ran him over.

heck according to some psycological research I have read most units in TW2K would be 98% psychological casualties. the other 2% would be psychopathic.

[pmulcahy11b]

heck according to some psycological research I have read most units in TW2K would be 98% psychological casualties. the other 2% would be psychopathic.

That's kind of a little-tapped area of T2K, for both PC and NPC development. I think it may be hard to play convincingly mentally-ill if you haven't been there, and you're not an actor or something like that -- and they need lots of research to do it right. Lots of mental illness portrayed on TV and movies is just wrong.