2nd Marine Division - Norther Poland

[Raellus]

Here's my take on the 2nd MarDiv's role in the XI Corps summer offensive:

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=2703&page=2&highlight=baltic+marines

[LAW0306]

Give me a chance here leg. Last time I presented a History and order of Battle for Marines( add to RFD source book 2007)...Frank Frey said it was now considered Cannon by him. It will make sense trust me on this. Might add a flavor that you might like.

[rcaf_777]

It's even potentially possible that the 2000 landings were considered to be a one way trip for the ship - one last throw of the dice to win the war which would secure the ability to then salvage the ship and repair it at leisure.

I have though about a group of PC's who would scout wrecks along the coast as a possiblity of expanding OP Omega, though about it as naval adventure

[Legbreaker]

I'm not too sure ships could be salvaged in T2K - it's a hard enough job even with today's resources.
Stripping them down on the other hand for parts....
In my previous post I was thinking more long term, a year or two perhaps, or that the ship(s) in question were beached close to the necessary industrial facilities.
Basically though I'm not even convinced myself it's much of a viable idea.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've got in mind a heavily damaged CV beaching or deliberately running aground near Key West NAS due to severe damage during a brawl with Soviet and Cuban land-based ships and ASMs late in 2000. The C2s, E2s and helos can all take off and make it to KW, but the jets are either going to have to be brought over by barge someday or just left there and slowly disassembled for spares for Homestead.

The ship's salvageability (that is, how much can be removed and used ashore) will become a huge asset for Key West. Hell, if it's a nuke and the reactors are stable, run power lines.

In fact that's probably what I'll write up.

[Adm.Lee]

I've got in mind a heavily damaged CV beaching or deliberately running aground near Key West NAS due to severe damage during a brawl with Soviet and Cuban land-based ships and ASMs late in 2000. The C2s, E2s and helos can all take off and make it to KW, but the jets are either going to have to be brought over by barge someday or just left there and slowly disassembled for spares for Homestead.

The ship's salvageability (that is, how much can be removed and used ashore) will become a huge asset for Key West. Hell, if it's a nuke and the reactors are stable, run power lines.

In fact that's probably what I'll write up.

That would be huge. I was musing about a 2001 campaign in the Gulf, with a Navy center, and that would make a terrific hub for it.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That would be huge. I was musing about a 2001 campaign in the Gulf, with a Navy center, and that would make a terrific hub for it.

If I have some free time I'll start it up tonight.

(edit: I did not, so, tomorrow perhaps)

[Abbott Shaull]

With the Marine Amphib Corps and it remains of the MEF, I am sure in the Middle East and Korea, the excess Naval Personnel who weren't need to keep what left of their Services operating would be sent to the 'local' Marine Infantry School to a point where you might see a Provisional Naval Infantry unit or two...lol

[Legbreaker]

Undoubtedly, however my thoughts are these excess naval personel would be used as replacements for existing Marine units rather than create new Naval formations. The sailors may not like it, the marines may not like it, but it makes more sense than trying to build units from scratch which don't have any experienced NCOs or Officers.

[HorseSoldier]

A lot of USN personnel would have skills that translated relatively well into logistics/support units in the USMC, which would allow Marine mechanics and such to push forward as casualty replacements. Might be initial attempts to keep things sort of discrete, but circa 2000 I'd picture the rear echelon of the Marine divisions as just being a jumble of sailors and marines filling out necessary support functions as best they can. Probably with some drafts of USN volunteers (or "volun-tolds") pushed into front line units as well as replacement riflemen or whatever really late in the war.

[Fusilier]

circa 2000 I'd picture the rear echelon of the Marine divisions as just being a jumble of sailors and marines filling out necessary support functions as best they can. Probably with some drafts of USN volunteers (or "volun-tolds") pushed into front line units as well as replacement riflemen or whatever really late in the war.

I agree, but I think not just some being pushed up as combat arms replacements, but quite a lot. With most of the true marines dead, captured, deserted, separated, etc, I can see a lot of navy guys needing to be put out on the line - earlier than 2000 too.

[James Langham]

Cadet Brigade

I agree, but I think not just some being pushed up as combat arms replacements, but quite a lot. With most of the true marines dead, captured, deserted, separated, etc, I can see a lot of navy guys needing to be put out on the line - earlier than 2000 too.

Checking the American Combat Vehicle Handbook (2.0) the Cadet Brigade of USAF trainees in January 1988 (I assume this is a typo and should read 1998). It is noted that this is theoretically an Air Force unit that is under army control. This would imply that the other services are being weeded of excess personnel earlier than we thought.

[Legbreaker]

We know that in mid to late 1997 Nato was being pushed back across Europe almost in a rout. We know from a variety of sources that they suffered extensive loss of manpower and equipment during this period. We know they used scorched earth tactics as they retreated.
We also know that the "last major naval fleet in being" was destroyed in June 1997 and that air power on both sides coped an absolute hammering in the early stages of the war.
Given that and the commencement of nuclear attacks in approximately July 1997, it's certainly no surprise that naval and air personnel were transfered/reorganised into ground assets.

[Legbreaker]

Rough draft

What follows is the result of about 200 hours of research, organisation, reorganisation, hair pulling and culling to get down to the 4,000 men listed as of the 1st of July 2000. There's still about another 50 hours of work to go before I'm happy.

Many units were cut completely and personnel redistributed to other units. A vast number of supporting units simply disappear as they're no longer needed (no supplies coming from the US for them to deal with). Many of the marines would have to take on the responsibilities of 2 or even 3 men (or more) in the prewar organisation - good thing the 2000 version of the 2nd Marines is a mere shadow of it's former power.

It's been a real shock to see just how many men are in the background - the 2nd Force Service Support Group has an authorised strength of approximately 7,600, and they don't even get CLOSE to the front lines!

2nd MARDIV
HQ Battalion 100 men

2nd Intelligence Battalion 40 men, 1x FQM-151 Pointer UAV
Headquarters Company
Counterintelligence/Human Intelligence Company (CI/HUMINT Coy)
Production & Analysis Company
Counterintelligence Support Company

8th Communication Battalion (inc. surviving personnel from 2nd Radio Battalion) 60 men

2nd Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Coy disbanded. Surviving personnel transferred 10th Regiment

2nd Tank Battalion 80 men, 8 M1

2nd Light Armoured Recon Battalion 152 men total
H&S Company (Striker) 1x M-1042A2 Humvee, 1x M-939 5 tonne truck, 10 men
Alpha Company (Apache) 8x LAV-25, 48 men
Bravo Company (Black Knights) 7x LAV-25, 47 men
Charlie Company (Gunfighters) 7x LAV-25, 47 men

2nd Recon Battalion 160 men
H&S Company 20, M-1042A2
Alpha Company 40
Bravo Company 40
Charlie Company 40
Force Reconnaissance Company 20, LKW Wolf IFAV, M-1044A1 Humvee

2nd Combat Engineer Battalion 200 men
Headquarters & Service Company (including surviving Chemical Biological Incident Response Force members) 40 men, M-1042A2,
Engineer Support Company 40
Alpha Company 40
Mobility Assault Company 40
Route Clearance Company 40

2nd Assault Amphibian Battalion (218 men, 40 AAVP-7A1, 2 AAVC-7A1, 2 AAVR-7A1)
Headquarters & Services Company 4+20 men, 2 AAVP-7A1
Alpha Company
HQ sec 2+14, 2xAAVC-7A1
Comms sec 7 (rides with HQ sec)
Assault amphibian general support section 13 men, 1 AAVP-7A1
Command & control section 12 men, 1 AAVP-7A1
Maintenance section 1+28 men, 2 AAVR-7A1 ARV
Assault amphibian vehicle platoons x3 1+38 men, 12 AAVP-7A1
Other companies disbanded

2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion 42 men
Battalion Headquarters
HQ section 2+1, M-1042A2
Logistics section 1+3+1, 1x M1097 + trailer
1st Battery 34 men
Battery HQ 1+3, 1 M-1044A1
1 Platoon Avenger 10
Section HQ 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 1 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 2 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 3 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 4 2 men, 1 Avenger
2 Platoon guns 20
Section HQ 3 men, M1097, twin M61 Vulcan, mounted
Team 5 4 men, M1097, M167 VADS, towed
Team 6 3 men, M1097, 20mm FK 20-2, mounted
Team 7 4 men, M1097, M167 VADS, towed
Team 8 4 men, M1097, 23mm ZUR-23-2S Jod, towed
Team 9 2 men, M1097, twin M61 Vulcan, mounted

2nd Marine Regiment (740 men)
HQ Coy 2nd Marines 66 men, M-1042A2
1/2nd Battalion 24 Officers + 313 Enlisted =337 men
H&S Company (aka BHQ) (6+31), M-1042A2
HQ Plt (4+6)
Comms Plt (5)
Service Plt (1+9), 2x M-939 5 tonne truck
Scout Plt (8)
Medical Plt (1+3)
Alpha Company 6+94 men
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
1 Plt 1+25 men
2 Plt 1+25 men
3 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
Bravo Company
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
4 Plt 1+25 men
5 Plt 1+25 men
6 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
Charlie Company
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
7 Plt 1+25 men
8 Plt 1+25 men
9 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 HUMVEE + trailer

2/2nd Battalion (organised as 1/2 battalion)

3/2nd Battalion - Disbanded, personnel transferred to 1/2 and 2/2

6th Marine Regiment 740 (organised as 2nd Regiment)
Headquarters Company 6th Marines

1/6th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

2/6th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

3/6th Btn - Disbanded, personnel transferred to 1/6 and 2/6

8th Marine Regiment 740 (organised as 2nd Regiment)
Headquarters Company 8th Marines

1/8th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

2/8th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

3/8th Btn -Disbanded, personnel transferred to 1/8 and 2/8

10th Marine Regiment 200 men
Headquarters Battery 10th Marines 50 men, M-1042A2

1/10th Btn 100 men, M-1042A2, M-1044A1
Headquarters Battery 10 men, 2x M-1042A2
Battery A 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck
Battery B 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck
Battery C 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck

5/10th Btn 50 men
Headquarters Battery 17 men, 1 M1097, 1 Mk48 heavy truck
R Battery 21 men 1 M110A2 203mm SP, 1 M-1050 FAASV
S Battery 12 men 1 M109A2 155mm SP, 1 M-992A1 FAASV

2nd Force Service Support Group (FSSG)
Headquarters & Service Battalion 50 men, M-1044A1

2nd Combat Logistics Battalion 200 men
Headquarters & Support Company, M-1044A1
Engineer Company
Transportation Support Company M-939 5 tonne trucks
Military Police
Maintenance Platoon
Landing Support Platoon
Supply Platoon M-939 5 tonne trucks, 2x LMC-1500
Communications Platoon

8th Engineer Support Battalion 200 men
Headquarters and Service Company, M-1044A1
Engineering Support Company
A Company
B Company
C Company
Bulk Fuel Company
Bridge Company
2nd Explosive Ordnance Disposal Company

2nd Maintenance Battalion 68 men, 1 M-88A1 Hercules
Headquarters & Service Company, M-1044A1
Electronic Maintenance Company
Engineer Maintenance Company
General Support Maintenance Company
Ordnance Maintenance Company
Motor Transportation Maintenance Company

2nd Medical Battalion 100 men
Headquarters and Service Company 30
Alpha Surgical 60, 2x MK48 heavy truck, 1x M-997 Ambulance, 2x M-997A2 ambulance
Bravo Dental 10

2nd Supply Battalion (located at Kiel, Germany) not included in 2nd MARDIV numbers
Specializes in distributing & warehousing military goods & equipment
Headquarters and Service Company
Ammunition Company
Supply Company
Medical Logistics Company

[Graebarde]

<Scratches head>
The 6th Marines were in NORWAY until when And the 8th Marines were in the Med until when Would 2 MarDiv be more than a Regimental Combat Team This is not to say your OOB isn't good, it just got me to wondering how those forces got to Poland. Perhaps the 8th, the the 6th would still be tied up in Norway.