2nd Marine Division - Norther Poland

[Legbreaker]

When the 4th GTA blasted the 5th Division and some Polish units rallied to fight back at the Germans, it all fell apart. The German III Corps and/or Third Army commanders felt it was some kind of trap, and acted to keep their own forces and territory from falling into it. If there were rumors of the "Red Bear" Chelkov behind it, that could certainly have reinforced it.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in that thread or another that there's some evidence that points towards a possible Pact offensive being slated for around the same time. I think it was proposed that the Nato offensive kicked off first causing the Pact to rapidly revise their plans and instead of striking directly westward into souther Germany, push up north to cut off XI Corp. The Germans were able to back out quickly enough - the US and Canadians were already too deep into Poland.
It's the Germans who would have been responsible for providing flank protection and perhaps press south once XI Corp had a defendable line along the Vistula (or thereabouts).

As the Admiral says, potentially a war winner, but one that rapidly turned sour with the appearance of the 4th GTA and counterattack near the German/Poland border.

[Rainbow Six]

The Tarawa had to have been sunk sometime before TF34 otherwise (to me at least) it makes much more sense for it to have been the flagship rather than an old destroyer.

Leg, firstly I agree with you that the Tarawa would be a logical choice ro serve as TF34 flagship if it was available.

However, at the risk of sounding pedantic, it doesn't have to have been sunk - it just needs to have been rendered inoperable. I'd suggest it's possible that it successfully completed its mission in the Baltic, offloading whatever elements of the 2nd Division it happened to be carrying, then headed back to potentially safer waters as it was too important an asset to be kept in harm's way any longer than was absolutely neccessary. Perhaps on its way back to those safer waters, it encountered a situation that left it severely damaged (hit a mine, attacked by torpedo boats or maybe even an airstrike - if avgas were available, the chance to knock out the Tarawa would surely warrant its use) but rather than sinking it managed to limp into a port, where it is currently stranded Maybe it even made Bremerhaven, but was left behind when TF34 sailed

To be honest, I'm really just thinking of scenario possibilities such as a team of PC's being sent on a mission to retrieve something that was left on the ship

[oldschoolgm]

Thanks for linking that other forum thread, that thread has talked about a lot of specific questions that were starting to pop up for me. The map is awesome in that it gives me a good visual of how the offensive began and it's objectives.

Between what you guys have given me and what I've found on my own I now have a lot to build upon to really give my game some life when I'm ready to start it.

I'll start a new thread for my next set of ideas and questions.

Great stuff guys, thanks again.

[Legbreaker]

... it doesn't have to have been sunk - it just needs to have been rendered inoperable.

Very true, however if only damaged, I'd be inclined to locate it in an area it's resources cannot be used during Omega (or have the majority of it's useful C & C facilities destroyed).
My thoughts are that if damaged, it should be to approximately the same degree as the ship in Satellite Down (can't think of the name off hand).

[Dog 6]

Very true, however if only damaged, I'd be inclined to locate it in an area it's resources cannot be used during Omega (or have the majority of it's useful C & C facilities destroyed).
My thoughts are that if damaged, it should be to approximately the same degree as the ship in Satellite Down (can't think of the name off hand).

that's what I'd do, have it off the beach of kolobrzeg. like
i said before, you'd have to let it off load 2ndMardiv's heavy equipment before sunk. maybe have a commando raid burn it....

[pmulcahy11b]

Have it torpedoed by the Barrikada (the Soviet sub in Boomer), just to tie it in with published T2K materials.

[Blakrider]

the problem with the TARAWA is that in the baltic, it would be a bomb magnet. odds are, it is on the bottom, if it wasnt sunk in the north atlantic

bot on the more interesting side, the 2nd Marine Div wouldnt be alone. the Volksmarine had the 28th and 29th MRR trained and equipped as Naval infantry and they also had a number of LST's and other landing craft.

(found althis out whent researching a Rostock sourcebook i was creating)

[Legbreaker]

I doubt the 28th and 29th would be needed to assist the Marines once they're on the ground (the 2nd Marines are one of the largest units left in 2000), but their naval transport resources would be very useful getting them to the AO.

The Barrikada has been stuck in the ice too long I think for it to be a viable option to remove the Tarawa. Perhaps a coastal torpedo boat, or even just a mine would be enough given the lack of supporting vessels

I can see Pact naval assets wreaking havok on the marine's transports. A few small motorboats armed with AT-4's, RPGs and whatever else they could scrounge up would be a real worry for the fleet commander.

[Rainbow Six]

Very true, however if only damaged, I'd be inclined to locate it in an area it's resources cannot be used during Omega (or have the majority of it's useful C & C facilities destroyed).
My thoughts are that if damaged, it should be to approximately the same degree as the ship in Satellite Down (can't think of the name off hand).

Agreed.

Actually, I should have looked at a map before suggesting Tarawa might have made it back to Bremerhaven, as that would have entailed going all the way around Denmark which strikes me as unlikely - it would burn more fuel and expose the ship to the risk of attack for a longer period (I'm making the assumption that Sovs would have made sure that the Kiel Canal was rendered impassable early in the War).

Whilst I like Dog6's idea of having her sit just off Kolobrzeg (and perhaps intact enough to still serve a useful purpose, possibly even serving as XI Corps HQ), it's equally possible she could have made one of the German Baltic ports such as Lubeck, Rostock, or Kiel all of which (going from memory) are garrisoned by non US NATO units. Perhaps one of those units have "requistioned" her and are working to get her operational (dependent on the extent of the damage) so they can use her for their own purposes (and making sure that the Americans think she is far more damaged than she actually is). Even if she was never able to put to sea again, I'm sure she would still be a valuable resource for the Germans or the Danes.

There's also the question of what happens to the crew. Dependent on how many actually got off (and where) I'd expect lots of them to have been drafted into various XI Corps units.

[Adm.Lee]

There's also the question of what happens to the crew. Dependent on how many actually got off (and where) I'd expect lots of them to have been drafted into various XI Corps units.

Maybe that's why the 2nd Marine Division has the high rifle strength that it now does

[Legbreaker]

Regarding the Tarawa, if it were beached or otherwise not on the bottom, it would not be in a port in Poland - there simply aren't any not in Pact hands which are capable of taking such a large vessel (all too small, too shallow, too nuked, or a combination of the three).

The crew of the ship, once immobilised/sunk/etc would almost certainly have joined the nearest friendly unit. It's pointless for them to have stayed aboard if there was no hope (as would be the situation in 2000) of recovery and repair.
My guess is that the Captain would have ordered the ship scuttled, perhaps even drawing on the services of a nearby engineer unit to destroy it with a demolition nuke.

Chances are the ship would already be suffering damage from earlier in the war that could not be repaired with the available resources - perhaps it needed dry docking to replace a screw, plus the flight deck had some sizable weak spots from missile/bomb hits which had been patches up to the best of the crew's ability. Could even have been on the fringes of a nuclear blast with radio antenna's destroyed, electronics fried, even perhaps a little residual radioactivity in the vessel's hull (which of course the higher ups would do their damnedest to keep quite).

It's even potentially possible that the 2000 landings were considered to be a one way trip for the ship - one last throw of the dice to win the war which would secure the ability to then salvage the ship and repair it at leisure.

[LAW0306]

I have order of battle and history of II MEF in Europe from fall 96 to 00. I tried to make it as close to cannon and follow book history. You must remeber that Marines Deploy as MEU (2,600) MEB( 17,000) MEF (50,000) Personel not as Division as army units do. I will address this in histroy. It might explain why they have so Many guys in end. II Mef should have 2nd MARDIV, 2nd MAW , 2nd MLG. Hope this helps.

[Legbreaker]

It needs to be remembered in this particular case that the Marines deployed as a Division and not some other type of unit.

[Webstral]

My take on the NATO Summer 2000 offensive in Poland has been that NATO was looking to position itself as favorably as possible for the post-2000 collapse. The Summer 1998 campaign in Central Europe would have demonstrated that the Soviets weren"t ready to throw in the towel. At the same time, the destruction of the modern economies would have had the logistics types re-schooling the generals on the relationship between motorized armies and their supply needs. The 1999 campaign season was dominated by infantry action because circumstances dictated a sort of hyper-conservative attitude among the surviving generals. No doubt some of them would have liked to take offensive action for the sake of establishing more favorable positions. However, the senior military leaders, having observed that the 1998 fighting accomplished little more except massive reduction in perilously small stockpiles of fuel, ammunition, and spare parts, probably wanted to husband what they had left for some sort of decisive action.

The formations of XI Corps seem quite well equipped on the eve of the offensive. Perhaps the offensive was a year or more in the building. Various US Army units throughout Germany might have been coerced into giving up precious materiel with the idea that one last great effort in Poland would finally finish the Soviets in Europe by demonstrating that the Soviets no longer possessed the strength or cohesion to hold Eastern Europe. Certainly, reports of ongoing collapse on the part of Soviet forces in Poland would have been welcomed during the run-up to the Summer 2000 offensive.

There are some reasons for a NATO offensive along the Baltic that might not be so obvious the American military planner. The main effort of the offensive was directed along the Baltic coast. East Prussia lies here. Although the German population in this part of Europe is much less than it was prior to the end of World War Two, East Prussia is still East Prussia in the minds of many Germans. We should bear in mind that the FRG, the DDR, and western Austria were under NATO control prior to the start of the offensive. Given that modern military operations were on the verge of final disintegration, and given the fact that anyone capable of looking into the future would see that a long-term rebuilding and repositioning based on natural resources and population was in the cards, the Anglo-Americans might well have supported trying to bring as much of the surviving German population under German control as possible to counter-balance France and the remnants of Russia. At the very least, the reestablishment of the pre-World War One borders in the East would have put Germany in a better position to deal with France and Russia twenty to thirty years down the road. The English speakers might have supported such an action under the premise that Anglo-American forces no longer would be in much position to affect events in that part of Europe; therefore, best to strengthen the local allies for the long-term.

Of course, the Soviets were afraid of exactly this sort of thing, which is why they had Fourth Guards Army on stand-by in Belarus.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

That is a very valid opinion you have there Web and ties in with a lot of what I've said on the subject.
Even ignoring population demographics, coal deposits, surviving industry etc, Nato holding the Baltic coastline is a MASSIVE advantage over the Pact, both for continuing war efforts (if any) and peace, well, I can't exactly say negotiations given there's no governments left to do it.
To me, holding the Baltic coastline is the key to long term security. The sea in 2000 is an almost unassailable transportation route given the virtually non-existant aviation assets in the world, not to mention almost total lack of effective naval forces (lets face it, a freighter with a 20mm AA gun could probably fight off the best either side has to play with except on a bad day).
Given this, it's no surprise the gamble was taken, nor that the Pact practically battered itself to pieces to prevent it happening.
Spring 2000 both sides still had significant offensive capability, by autumn this was completely gone - on both sides of the fence.