2nd Marine Division - Norther Poland

[Legbreaker]

The 2nd reformed in northern Germany in January 1998. There's no indication they were involved in any significant actions from then until Spring 2000 (which doesn't say they weren't of course).

My thoughts are in around late April, early May 2000, the 2nd moved to Kiel and embarked on transports to take them to their landings across the Wisla delta. At a guess the sea journey wouldn't have taken a day, the actual landing about three or four days (due to a shortage of landing vessels), and overland movement and securing of initial objectives another day or two.

Landing at Stegna, primary objectives might be the village & bridges at Rybina (and eventual location of DIVHQ and supporting units), Wisla river crossing at Dworek, the town & bridges at Nowy Dwor, and bridge at Jazowa.
Secondary objectives (to provide an alternate route for the 8th ID and following units) would be the bridge over Leniwka at the west end of Sobieszewo Island (east of Gdansk), the ferry at Sobieszewo (east of Gdansk), and the lock at the south eastern end of the island. Elbag might be taken a few days later depending on the overall situation while the remainder of the division digs in and sends out patrols against the expected Pact reaction.

[Adm.Lee]

The 2nd reformed in northern Germany in January 1998. There's no indication they were involved in any significant actions from then until Spring 2000 (which doesn't say they weren't of course).

I think we discussed this a little in the last year. I suspect the division, now unified, was kept as an uncommitted reserve during the Soviet '98 offensive, or perhaps used as a raiding force on the Baltic, and/or as an amphibious decoy to threaten the Baltic coast.

[Webstral]

That's a lot of work and a lot of attention to detail, Leg. I wish I had the time to study you ORBAT in detail and give proper feedback, but I don't even have time for my own work right now. Thanks for keeping the creative light lit!

[Rainbow Six]

Leg, I enjoyed reading your orbat and it sounds plausible enough to me - well done.

<Scratches head>
The 6th Marines were in NORWAY until when And the 8th Marines were in the Med until when Would 2 MarDiv be more than a Regimental Combat Team This is not to say your OOB isn't good, it just got me to wondering how those forces got to Poland. Perhaps the 8th, the the 6th would still be tied up in Norway.

There's a relatively detailed timeline for Norway in the Boomer module (although it does have a big gap from the end of 1997 to autumn of 2000). It states that most NATO forces were withdrawn from Norway at some unspecified time after the end of 1997, and by the end of 2000 the only non Norwegian NATO forces in the country were British and Canadian.

[Legbreaker]

I think we discussed this a little in the last year. I suspect the division, now unified, was kept as an uncommitted reserve during the Soviet '98 offensive, or perhaps used as a raiding force on the Baltic, and/or as an amphibious decoy to threaten the Baltic coast.

I tend to agree and it makes sense. From memory, the only real action in 98-99 was down towards the south of Germany so the Marines plus most other units in the north make for a good reserve/occupation/defence force.
With the northern units basically sitting it out for a while, it's plausible the units in the south aren't in as strong a position having had less "free" time to reorganise and tend to maintenance and food production.

That's a lot of work and a lot of attention to detail, Leg.

Leg, I enjoyed reading your orbat and it sounds plausible enough to me - well done.

Thanks! I'm fairly happy with the numbers now (although it's subject to tweaking as more facts appear). The next step is filling out vehicles and heavy weapons.

It states that most NATO forces were withdrawn from Norway at some unspecified time after the end of 1997, and by the end of 2000 the only non Norwegian NATO forces in the country were British and Canadian.

With 7 nationalities included in the 2nd Marines as of October 2000, I'm guessing a few Norwegians and Danes may have either come back with the Marines, or been included in their 2000 landings to fill out specialist shortfalls.
It's hard to justify British, Czechs, Romanians, etc in their numbers, and near impossible for French, Dutch, Italians, Greeks and Turks. Logically only Germans, Americans and Canadians could readily be absorbed, although Poles and Russians and maybe Ukrainians may have a presence (in limited numbers due to security and trust issues).

[Rainbow Six]

With 7 nationalities included in the 2nd Marines as of October 2000, I'm guessing a few Norwegians and Danes may have either come back with the Marines, or been included in their 2000 landings to fill out specialist shortfalls.

It's hard to justify British, Czechs, Romanians, etc in their numbers, and near impossible for French, Dutch, Italians, Greeks and Turks. Logically only Germans, Americans and Canadians could readily be absorbed, although Poles and Russians and maybe Ukrainians may have a presence (in limited numbers due to security and trust issues).

It's not impossible that a small number of British troops - either Royal Marines from 3 Commando Brigade (which I think has a different title in the books), or soldiers from the Parachute Regiment or the Royal Green Jackets could have found themselves attached to the US Marines whilst in Norway and never returned to UK command. It's probably more of a stretch for the Dutch, but still not impossible - IRL Dutch Marines would have been attached to 3 Commando Brigade for operations in Norway (I'm at work so don't have any books handy to confirm if that happened in T2K).

[Legbreaker]

While the British may have been with the marines in Norway, the marines have been in Germany for a couple of years by 2000. Chances are those Brits would have been reclaimed.
The Dutch never got out of Germany (Dutch government only stayed in Nato as long as their troops weren't sent into the offensive) before France moved in and the Dutch all went home.
Due to the strategic importance of the marine component of the offensive, I'm of the opinion the various Nato allies would have been requested to provide amphibious trained troops to form small platoon sized units within the 2nd Marine structure.

[Rainbow Six]

Due to the strategic importance of the marine component of the offensive, I'm of the opinion the various Nato allies would have been requested to provide amphibious trained troops to form small platoon sized units within the 2nd Marine structure.

Yeah, makes sense, that's actually why I think there is a case to be made made for at least some Royal Marines to have stayed with the US Marines even after they moved to Germany and the option was there to bring them back under national command - it would be a way of keeping all amphibious trained troops together under a single command structure and provides the 2nd Dvn with experienced replacements for its losses so I definitely think there might be a few Royal Marines serving with the 2nd Marine Division in the summer of 2000.

[Legbreaker]

I'd think that they'd definitely been reclaimed in '98 but seconded back to the 2nd Marines during the organisational stages of the 2000 offensive. Makes no sense for them to stay with the US when nobody could possibly have any idea of the situation to occur later.

[LAW0306]

Sorry Leg you just spent two years getting alot of things wrong. you have units that would not even be in a division in one. you told me two years ago they only deployed as a division yet you have Combat logistic units and Marine air wing units in your order of battle. I'm sorry you wasted your time and now conterdict yourself.

[LAW0306]

you also use iraq war task force names like route clearance and mobile assault in 2nd CEB. They were only for Iraq war to make them fight as infantry to fall under foce caps.

[Legbreaker]

Oh dear.....

Once again Law you're overlooking an important fact. This is a game, it's set several YEARS after nukes and warfare wipe out real life organisations.

What is in the "real world" simply does not apply, especially since there's just 4000 people to fill in positions for which approximately four times that number are supposedly required.

I think I'll be ignoring your comments. Again. They're just not relevant to the situation.

[LAW0306]

you can ignore all you want but you stated that only 2nd Marine division was in europe . Right well you have units from MEF, The WIng and the MLG Present. How did they get there did they come by themselfs to europe please enlighten me.

[LAW0306]

oh i forgot god bless you leg.

[LAW0306]

one last thing leg. We make SPMAGTF all the time and have plans to get bigger and smaller a war would not change this . its called doctrine. you just messed up. its cool we all do it. just take some advice and be better now that you have it.