Land Mines at Kalisz

[Webstral]

While I was rocking my son in preparation for his mid-day nap, I was thinking about Escape from Kalisz. We had a thread discussing the volume of land mines in Poland. I found myself thinking about this in conjunction with having NATO troops escape southward from Kalisz. There is a wooded area south of the city where players generally are assumed to start. At one point a couple of summers ago I sketched the plot for an Escape from Kalisz novel. I envisioned the party moving south through the woods to an east-west road, where they would ambush a Soviet convoy. The problem is that these woods are probably rotten with land mines. Wildlife will have set off some of them, and the pattern probably does not look much like a standard minefield anyway. However, given the nature of the fighting in Poland in 1997, it"s hard to believe that there is anyplace west of the Vistula that doesn"t have at least a random scattering of AP mines. This is going to be a real problem in moving through the woods. The trails, which is where the vehicles are going to have to go, may very well have AT mines on them or be the location of an ambush. A foot unit will have to go first. AP mines will make their lives hazardous and maybe quite brief.

Any thoughts on this, guys



Webstral

[Raellus]

It's a good thought, Web, and one that, AFAIK, has gone unaddressed for a long time.

Here are a few ideas right off the top of my head.

In areas with civilian populations- and especially areas with viable agricultural production capacity- occupying troops may have gone out of their way to remove minefields as a way of improving PR. One or two dead or maimed farm hands and/or cows and the civilians would have a pretty good idea of where the local minefields are. Perhaps some brave and enterprising civilians have taken to removing mines themselves, maybe selling their services and/or the recovered mines. I think that this could make for an interesting NPC encounter.

In forests- at least here in the U.S.- animals often create their own high speed trails. I have a number of rabbit trails in my backyard. Soldiers could follow newer game trails to avoid old mines or one could assume that game and/or hunters have accidently cleared most mines from older ones. As I understand it, in Europe, forests aren't filled with quite as much underbrush as they are here in the States so many game trails are not as common.

Since landmine production probably all but stopped in around mid '97, one could assume that the fighting between '97 and 2000 helped cut down on the number and density of minefields in Poland. Minefields have either been destroyed by fighting (i.e. doing their secondary job of destroying enemy troops and vehicles) or removed by combat engineers. Also, very few new minefields would have been laid after supplies of mines ran out.

That said, there are undoubtedly still quite a few minefields or minefield fragments out there and PCs should be made to remember that if they are too nonchalant about the threat.

[HorseSoldier]

A random and forgotten minefield could exist most anywhere, but would be more of a nuisance than a real impediment to transit -- though maybe not for the guy who kicks a mine. It wouldn't really stop movement in a direction but could make for the basis for any number of scenarios -- one of the PCs vehicles suddenly mobility killed, they could happen upon local civilians who've just struck a mine, they could even be beneficial with a Soviet patrol creeping up on their camp hitting a mine. Hell, a good foraging roll could even represent happening upon a deer/cow/pig/whatever that hit an AP mine (edible, just watch the shrapnel . . .).

Besides that, I'd throw in a lot of crippled, one legged civilians, a la real world Cambodia and other places where land mines were endemic at some point.

[pmulcahy11b]

One of the biggest effects of minefields is fear -- and even one mine can do that, make you afraid to take another step. You have no idea if it's a random mine that's left over or if you managed to stumble into the middle of a minefield, and your next step could be your last. So you have to carefully work your way back out again, of slowly check for mines as you work your way forward. And you may not be sure when you've reached the end of the field. Something like that can be paralyzing, or at least slow your advance considerably or even stop it while you back out and look for another way around the area.

[oldschoolgm]

I tend to think there would not be that many minefields around Kalisz and to the south. Looking at Google maps aerial photos show the area is full of farms and small villages as well as lots of small plots where farm houses and barns are. The few forests in the area, and they are sparser than the maps for the game show; are full of small roads, houses and the occasional village.

As I imagine the area in game in the year 2k, I doubt the villages and farm houses are occupied. The larger towns and cities will be in varying degrees of ruination but occupied and therefore using the surrounding farm fields for fuel and food.

If there are mine fields, I would think they would be small and situated in areas where no population exists and where roads or easy avenues for military units to move through would be. Again though I doubt there would be many, or at least there wouldn't be in a game I ran.

[atiff]

So can anyone comment on the clearing rate for minefields How much ground could an individual clear in a day, unaided by machinery I am thinking about how civilians get on with their lives, clearing farmland and such.

On a related thought, how would a road-crew's steamroller hold up to mines A quick way to clear farms

Andrew

[LBraden]

If I remember my old uncle (A Ukrainian Nazi, he hated Stalin) he said that his squad could clear an "average farm field" within a day, the next problem is, how big were the farmers fields in Europe during WWII

But, I think it could take an hour or two for someone to clear a good swath of ground, depending if its tank or man though just a few fields, remember, its laying on the floor pushing your knife or bayonet in every 2 inches along the ground front of you, then moving the line up 2 inches and repeating that.

[Targan]

One of the biggest effects of minefields is fear -- and even one mine can do that, make you afraid to take another step. You have no idea if it's a random mine that's left over or if you managed to stumble into the middle of a minefield, and your next step could be your last. So you have to carefully work your way back out again, of slowly check for mines as you work your way forward. And you may not be sure when you've reached the end of the field. Something like that can be paralyzing, or at least slow your advance considerably or even stop it while you back out and look for another way around the area.

The players (and by extension their characters) in my campaign were terrified of mines.

[Legbreaker]

...pushing your knife or bayonet in every 2 inches along the ground front of you, then moving the line up 2 inches and repeating that.

Using a metal probe is a very bad idea in modern times. Although safe enough back in the first half of the 20th century, there's enough mines around now triggered by magnetic fields to make the practice somewhat hazardous to one's health.
The "recommended" (ie required by SOP) method is to use a non-ferrous probe - a wooden stake is ideal, although plastic, even aluminium is a damn fine choice.

[oldschoolgm]

On a related thought, how would a road-crew's steamroller hold up to mines A quick way to clear farms

Andrew

I would imagine it would be less than ideal. Anti-Tank mines are very powerful and at the very least would cause to roller to become inoperable due to the massive amount of force hitting the roller and the torque that would affect the axles and other such components holdiing the roller on. Shrapnel become as issue as the driver would be up protected. I also do not see a road-crew steamroller being effective at all in clearing IED's, and I tend to think IED's would be more prevalent in 2K than anti-tank mines.

Against anit-personel mines, the steamroller may prove to be fairly effective though I still have to wonder about shrapnel. I've seen pictures of armored vehicles with huge metal rolling pins in front of them to be used for mine clearing in Iraq, but they also have a pretty thick steel shield attached to the front of the vehicle to stop or deflect the shrapnel and debris from the explosion.

[atiff]

Just a thought

[Adm.Lee]

While I agree minefields might earn an entry on the Random Encounters Table, I'm not so sure about near Kalisz.

Who's going to be laying mines south of the 5th Division's last stand If it's the Soviets and Poles in July 2000, where did they get a lot of mines, and why would they be dropping them there IIRC, this was an extended meeting engagement, a mobile battle of sorts. Minefields, AFAIK, are more common in deliberate defensive positions, and the Battle of Kalisz doesn't seem to fit that for me.

Also, since production of just about everything has ceased, mines are going to be mostly recent products, and a lot less sophisticated than pre-war models. The magnetic or electronic exploders are going to be a lot rarer, I should think. Of course, nothing is preventing anyone from making a lot of signs warning of mines and scattering them about....

Now, along the banks of the Oder River, where the front has been stable for at least a year, that should be lousy with mines-- either from pre-war stocks, wartime production, or post-nuke IEDs.

One thing I remember reading from Soviet doctrine is that "a minefield is no good unless covered by fire." Meaning, if there is a minefield, someone armed should be watching it, to ambush whoever is stuck in it.

[Fusilier]

One thing I remember reading from Soviet doctrine is that "a minefield is no good unless covered by fire." Meaning, if there is a minefield, someone armed should be watching it, to ambush whoever is stuck in it.

That's not specifically a Soviet doctrine. Western armies believe the same (including non-explosive obstacles too).

[Dog 6]

one thing to think of is artillery delivered mines. both sides would have used them, if they still had any left. at Kalisz the 5th would have used them to cover the break out. the Soviet/ poles to stop them getting away.

[Legbreaker]

Who's going to be laying mines south of the 5th Division's last stand If it's the Soviets and Poles in July 2000, where did they get a lot of mines, and why would they be dropping them there IIRC, this was an extended meeting engagement, a mobile battle of sorts. Minefields, AFAIK, are more common in deliberate defensive positions, and the Battle of Kalisz doesn't seem to fit that for me.

What he said.

The vast majority of mines the Viet Cong and NVA used in Vietnam against the Australians (and I suspect other allied nations also) came from a 7 mile long field which was supposed to have been watched over by the ARVN...
The situation became so bad that the entire field was dismantled rather than continue to allow hundreds of tonnes of mines to just walk away in the night.
"Recycling" like this is likely to be one of the few methods of resupply by 2000.