Mongoose Publishing and Twilight 2000

[Legbreaker]

I've had more than my share of spats with people like Leg and others on here for slights or perceived slights to my country, and God knows I'm proud to be an American.

All water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. As for you being an American, well we all have our crosses to bear*...

* If anyone reads that as other than tongue in cheek, then they seriously need to grow a sense of humour!

[Chris]

I have it and I've read it, but I haven't done a lot of playing with it.

It's very similar to Classic Traveller:
- nearly all die rolls are 2d6, beat a 7 with modifiers, of course.
- semi-random lifepath character generation. That is, you pick a career and roll to see how you do, and what skills and goodies you pick up. With very few adjustments, this could be made to fit the T2k background.

I knew they were trying for the "Classic" feel, but it sounds like I should just dig out my little black books again instead of looking at the core. That is if (I mean when, honest) they actually get it out in 2011 or so.

I'm going to cross my fingers on this.

Did they keep the hard-core survival role in each term I remember going seven terms in the scouts, getting a mandatory re-enlistment, and dieing in the eighth.

[helbent4]

I've had more than my share of spats with people like Leg and others on here for slights or perceived slights to my country, and God knows I'm proud to be an American; but I absolutely despise our public education system. I was lucky and overcame the hurdle, but since my three kids got into school, I've been nothing but disappointed. I know Webstral is a teacher, and I hope he does his best to fight the system, but I firmly believe it's broken in this nation. I give kudos to nations that have broken the code and managed to actually educate their people.

Eddie,

I wish to make clear, I can't speak for the Canadian educational system in general, and for all I know the players in my group may be a statistical blip!

As for the comparison between T2K and TMP, if I may quote Reagan, "there you go again!" (I don't mean that as a slam, but more in the sense that it's not often I can quote Ronald Reagan and I feel I must do so when relevant... I MUST!). I somewhat agree with your point about the fantastical elements, but as my campaign was based on Final Watch the Cold War-esque elements were in full force.

Hey, a "classic" T2K background isn't going to attract everyone. V2+ seemed to get around this problem of historicity (that is, how it's placed within the stream of history) by making it counterfactual. This maintains the existential horror of the Cold War by making the setting part of an alternative timeline. To some players, the knowledge that the Cold War is over might impair their suspension of disbelief, but then re-imagining a global conventional/nuclear war (a classic Cold War trope) is also difficult for some people to credit, not to mention introducing a generic nature to the background.

I'm reminded of a friend who could never get into Call of Cthulhu. Having read Lovecraft, his knowledge of the bigger picture (humanity was essentially doomed) meant he couldn't really enjoy any adventure because it was ultimately hopeless. While probably true within the context of the Cthulhu Mythos, the key to enjoyment would seem to be to "forget" the overall historical/global picture and concentrate on what your character can accomplish, within the bounds of the scenario.

I guess the elephant in the room in this discussion is there was an RPG that tried to update T2K to something more modern. While it succeeded on some levels I sincerely hope any additional kicks at that can (by Mongoose or anyone) will do a lot better.

Tony

[helbent4]

I really do think that if the part of the RPG industry can be called mainstream as a whole thought there was some unfilled cold-war-gone-hot-whoops-gritty-simulationist-apocalypse niche to be exploited they'd be filling it.

With d20.

Snake Eyes,

Hey, the Cold War background didn't make you pitch it across the room, did it That's presumably the same for anyone that played the single-player campaign.

I fully admit that I'm setting the bar as low as I can get away with. I'll take a "lack of disgust" as proof-positive!

As recent history has conclusively proven, the invisible hand of the market isn't perfect! Tastes can change over time; themes can get played out, what are once considered narrow niches can become widely popular (in fact, this can be cyclical). If professional game designers and the individuals who run the companies that make RPGs sincerely believe something isn't profitable they simply won't waste what little time or resources they have in exploring blind avenues. (I don't mean to imply there's some kind of evil cartel or conspiracy to suppress Cold War games, merely that if no one tries then we'll never know.)

In fact, sometimes the players themselves don't know what they want. SPI almost produced historical wargames because of the feedback from their players indicated what they wanted, and nothing more. Someone faked or massaged player feedback (which was solicited on a regular basis) to get the green light for the "Star Force: Alpha Centauri" wargame and it turned out to be wildly successful and basically ushered in hard science fiction wargaming.

That said, there are recent RPGs that make use of Cold War themed games out there (GURPS: SEALs in Vietnam, the RPGs "Cold City" and "Hot War" to name a few off the top of my head) so it's not been completely neglected. For that matter, Decision Games (the sort-of successor to SPI) has published a line of games using the Cold War Battles system: Wurzburg Pentomic, the NATO intervention scenario in Hungary '56 (both hypothetical WWIII-based scenarios) and Kabul '79/Angola '87. (Cold War Battles seem to be related to the SPI Modern Battle series of the '70s.) They also recently produced GSFG, an update and homage to "NATO: Operational Combat in Europe in the 1970's".

Tony

[Raellus]

I've had more than my share of spats with people like Leg and others on here for slights or perceived slights to my country, and God knows I'm proud to be an American; but I absolutely despise our public education system. I was lucky and overcame the hurdle, but since my three kids got into school, I've been nothing but disappointed. I know Webstral is a teacher, and I hope he does his best to fight the system, but I firmly believe it's broken in this nation. I give kudos to nations that have broken the code and managed to actually educate their people.

Wow. As someone who's taken offense at digs against the U.S. military made on this forum, I'm surprised to see you taking pot shots at another honorable and patriotic but often misunderstood and sometimes thankless profession. The system aint all that great, but most of us do the best with what we're given. In my experience, the issue is not so much with the public education system as it is with parents and the media teaching kids that they don't have to take responsibility for their own futures. Hey, who needs to try to get a good education when they can become a rapper or reality TV "personality" We're all victims, anyway, right The hardest part of my job is trying to teach kids who don't want to learn. They expect to be entertained more than educated. I do my best but I'm no Youtube. Public education is a convenient scapegoat for the nation's ills. Why blame absentee parents and a souless entertainment industry when we've got public school teachers to kick around Open fire.

[helbent4]

Regarding Mongoose Traveller's Book 1: Mercenary:

There is a "Survival" roll, but it's more like the "you must leave the service". You can still continue, but in another career.

I agree with Raellus in that SF characters are so common as to make their "special" nature almost commonplace. Still, in Mercenary there are careers loosely based on the classic Mercenary tickets: "Cadre, Commando, Guerrilla, Security, Striker and Warmonger". "Commando" would naturally work for special ops PCs, but pretty much most of the rest would apply with some imagination.

The combat rules seem to add some nice chrome, although the weapons by their nature are generic, of course.

Tony

[natehale1971]

I still think you could do the Cold War feel with the creation of an Alternate Timeline that continues the Cold War into the 21st Century... The biggest way to have done that is have the USSR and it's satellite states doing what the Chinese Communists have done with their 'State Controlled Capitalism' (ie 'national' socialism)...

Having someone replace Gorby (ie Danilov) who has the appearence of a hardliner, but in reality is the reformer.. who turns Eastern Europe into a rapidly growing economic powerhouse. The USSR had more resources than the USA has, and SHOULD HAVE been able to overcome us... but it was the mismanagement of those resources that saw their downfall.

The PRC saw this, and has been doing everything they can to NOT repeat those mistakes. And as we are seeing now, they are becoming a major economic & political powerhouse.

Just think of what the Cold War could have turned into if the USSR did that instead. They honestly believed that SDI was a real project and not just something that the Reagan Administration wanted to use as a GOAL to inspire the US... just like JFK did with his famous "put a man on the moon" speech.

It was this that caused Gorby to blink... But what IF someone like Danilov came to power, and saw it for what it was. Something to aspire too, and used that to do a major overhaul of the Soviet Bloc... and overhaul like what the PRC has done.

Thus allowing the Cold War to continue on... and then we have the cold war slowly going HOT in the year 2000 with the growth of Islamic fundamentalism (ie the west having originally had used it against the Soviets in Afghanistan and the Central Asian Republics) into a threat than anyone could have ever thought possible (but we in our world know to be true).

And these Islamic fundamentalists are the ones who triggered the Cold War going hot... Be it with terrorist attacks like 11 September 2001, or something as benign as triggering a border dispute between the PRC and USSR.

Thus you can keep the "Twilight: 2000" title for the game, and use the thoughts of importing OUR world into their world... having parallel development of technology (or even an acceleration of technology showing up sooner) allowing for a wide deal of things as well.

Having a slow build-up for the HOT War... allows for the war to become more pronounced and a truly GLOBAL war. And has the bonus of having the major powers being played by the Terrorists.

Something that many of the more popular techno-thriller novels of today are using, and might be a way that the game could use to get new blood into it!

[Eddie]

Wow. As someone who's taken offense at digs against the U.S. military made on this forum, I'm surprised to see you taking pot shots at another honorable and patriotic but often misunderstood and sometimes thankless profession. The system aint all that great, but most of us do the best with what we're given. In my experience, the issue is not so much with the public education system as it is with parents and the media teaching kids that they don't have to take responsibility for their own futures. Hey, who needs to try to get a good education when they can become a successful rapper or reality TV "personality" We're all victims, anyway, right Public education is a convenient scapegoat for the nation's ills. Why blame absentee parents and a souless entertainment industry when we've got public school teachers to kick around

Yuck. Phew. Pfft.

Those are some yucky words you're putting in my mouth, Rae.

Before I go any further, I just want to go on record as stating that my wife and I are not absentee parents. My wife drives my oldest son to school every day so he can go to tutoring early morning and then gets tutoring in the evening. She or I sit with our 8-year-old daughter and help her with her homework every day. My middle child is pretty smart and we never have any troubles with him. We maintain close contact with all of their teachers and my wife goes so far as to sit and make them do any assignment that they "forget about" and turn it in for even a marginal grade. I've gone so far as to shadow my son throughout the day to make sure that he wasn't goofing off and not doing his homework. So yeah, I have a right to talk about the system. Nevermind the fact that I pay my taxes which gives me a right.

I didn't say anything about teachers. I said the system is screwed. Funding priorities in the government are all kinds of messed up. Fuel costs are mandating that districts are charging bus fees. How many school systems are going bankrupt How poorly are teachers paid How many school districts have furlough Fridays (or the like) I said that I know that Web is a teacher and that I hope he fights the system. I meant in the respect that he does the best he can. Not that he's lazy and not doing anything. But I don't know the man. Maybe he is. Maybe you are. But I DID NOT SAY THAT.

Contrary to what you and about five other core members of this board think, I'm not always out to say that you guys suck, my shit doesn't stink, and you are all retarded for not liking 2013. You guys don't like me That's fine. Don't assume that I'm just trying to argue and accuse everyone else of everything.

You guys have a nice night.

[Raellus]

Wait, aren't you the same guy that gets incensed when anyone mentions anything negative about anything regarding or related to U.S. army "officers" I don't recall anyone ever mentioned you personally, but you seem to take great offense anyway. Now you're using the cop out of saying that you were slagging the education "system" and not me personally so I shouldn't be upset. I didn't call you an absentee parent did I You seem to be taking my comments to say that. That's putting words in my mouth. Why are you the only one who can take pride in his profession and get upset when people throw stones Must be because I don't like the T2013 timeline.

That's called hypocricy.

You have a nice night.

[natehale1971]

Yuck. Phew. Pfft.

Those are some yucky words you're putting in my mouth, Rae.

Before I go any further, I just want to go on record as stating that my wife and I are not absentee parents. My wife drives my oldest son to school every day so he can go to tutoring early morning and then gets tutoring in the evening. She or I sit with our 8-year-old daughter and help her with her homework every day. My middle child is pretty smart and we never have any troubles with him. We maintain close contact with all of their teachers and my wife goes so far as to sit and make them do any assignment that they "forget about" and turn it in for even a marginal grade. I've gone so far as to shadow my son throughout the day to make sure that he wasn't goofing off and not doing his homework. So yeah, I have a right to talk about the system. Nevermind the fact that I pay my taxes which gives me a right.

I didn't say anything about teachers. I said the system is screwed. Funding priorities in the government are all kinds of messed up. Fuel costs are mandating that districts are charging bus fees. How many school systems are going bankrupt How poorly are teachers paid How many school districts have furlough Fridays (or the like) I said that I know that Web is a teacher and that I hope he fights the system. I meant in the respect that he does the best he can. Not that he's lazy and not doing anything. But I don't know the man. Maybe he is. Maybe you are. But I DID NOT SAY THAT.

Contrary to what you and about five other core members of this board think, I'm not always out to say that you guys suck, my shit doesn't stink, and you are all retarded for not liking 2013. You guys don't like me That's fine. Don't assume that I'm just trying to argue and accuse everyone else of everything.

You guys have a nice night.

Eddie you sound like how things are with my nephew when it comes to helping your children. My sister and brother-in-law does the same thing..

The biggest problem with our education system has been the teachers unions. I know that sounds like talking points, but it's not. To many bad teachers are allowed to stay in the classrooms because they are tenured.

Yes, absentee parents are a problem. and that comes from the fact we have become such a materialistic society that it takes two (or more) income households to 'buy all of the crap' that they think they need. This not only has the problem of there not being a parent in the home when kids get home to help them with their homework (or just MAKE them do the homework), many times those two incomes are being brought in by ONE parent... and that's usually a single mother.

WHY

Because our society has made marriage just as disposable as diapers. Look at how things are in England.. fathers don't have any rights. it's easy to end a marriage, and yes.. i know this from first hand experience. My wife is British, and took my sons to the UK when she abandoned me after the wreck. She's been shacked up with some guy since then and has a child by him, and we are still legally married. She's living on the dole there, getting all kinds of money from the government.

We don't have that here in the states YET... and in all honesty, i hope that the UK will change that. Because they don't have the money for that kind of crap anymore. But we are seeing how that's going over... all over the European Union we are seeing the nanny state countries collapsing because they don't have the money anymore, and to many of the "Dolists" are too self-centred to see that the free-ride they've gotten has to end because the saying of "there is no such thing as a free lunch" is way to true. Because someone has to pay for that lunch, and when you end up "Robbing Peter to Pay Paul"... Peter will one day get so tired of that, he's going to LEAVE.

I'm not saying that we don't need a safety net, but turning it into a hammock is just to screwed up.

While I didn't like the background of T2013, i've never complained about you and find you to be one of my favorite people to talk with and read on here.

[helbent4]

I still think you could do the Cold War feel with the creation of an Alternate Timeline that continues the Cold War into the 21st Century... The biggest way to have done that is have the USSR and it's satellite states doing what the Chinese Communists have done with their 'State Controlled Capitalism' (ie 'national' socialism)...

Something that many of the more popular techno-thriller novels of today are using, and might be a way that the game could use to get new blood into it!

Nate,

Hey, this is awesome! I've thought along these lines, that the Soviets might have taken a page from the Chinese and introduced economic reforms without loosening the CPSU's grip on power. (I assume this happened to a degree in T2K anyways to explain the USSR's longevity.) Increased economic engagement with western Europe could lead to the fragmentation of the NATO alliance, as in T2K.

Some further changes might include a still-separate East Germany, whereupon West Germany has the resources to field the G11 and LMG11. If a non-nuclear or less-nuclear scenario is desired, then Gorbachev may well have accepted Reagan's offer of complete nuclear disarmament at Reykjavik, thus leading to smaller arsenals when war does break out (less time to rearm).

Tony

[Eddie]

Wait, aren't you the same guy that gets incensed when anyone mentions anything negative about anything regarding or related to U.S. army "officers" I don't recall anyone ever mentioned you personally, but you seem to take great offense anyway. Now you're using the cop out of saying that you were slagging the education "system" and not me personally so I shouldn't be upset. I didn't call you an absentee parent did I Must be because I don't like the T2013 timeline.

What's the average reading grade level of an American, Rae How do we rank internationally How do we rank on standardized tests

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/19/US-slipping-in-education-rankings/UPI-90221227104776/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120400730.html

Those are just two quick searches.

I'm not trying to make cheap shots. I'm not trying to make this personal between you and me. If you want to, we can go to PM and waste our time.

[Panther Al]

Nate,

Hey, this is awesome! I've thought along these lines, that the Soviets might have taken a page from the Chinese and introduced economic reforms without loosening the CPSU's grip on power. (I assume this happened to a degree in T2K anyways to explain the USSR's longevity.) Increased economic engagement with western Europe could lead to the fragmentation of the NATO alliance, as in T2K.

Some further changes might include a still-separate East Germany, whereupon West Germany has the resources to field the G11 and LMG11. If a non-nuclear or less-nuclear scenario is desired, then Gorbachev may well have accepted Reagan's offer of complete nuclear disarmament at Reykjavik, thus leading to smaller arsenals when war does break out (less time to rearm).

Tony

An outstanding idea, and best yet if you did want to use current RL history you could easily say that the party returned to power. I recall reading that to this day there is still amazingly enough a sort of fondness for the "good old days" amongst russians.

[natehale1971]

Nate,

Hey, this is awesome! I've thought along these lines, that the Soviets might have taken a page from the Chinese and introduced economic reforms without loosening the CPSU's grip on power. (I assume this happened to a degree in T2K anyways to explain the USSR's longevity.) Increased economic engagement with western Europe could lead to the fragmentation of the NATO alliance, as in T2K.

Some further changes might include a still-separate East Germany, whereupon West Germany has the resources to field the G11 and LMG11. If a non-nuclear or less-nuclear scenario is desired, then Gorbachev may well have accepted Reagan's offer of complete nuclear disarmament at Reykjavik, thus leading to smaller arsenals when war does break out (less time to rearm).

Tony

Actually Tony... it was Gorby who volunteered total nuclear disarmament, but ONLY if the US abandoned SDI. And as much as Reagan hated Nuclear weapons... he didn't want to abandon the idea of SDI because to many OTHERS in the world had gotten the nuclear bomb genie to visit them.

I've always thought of a separate DDR & Poland having been a very important part of the growing economic powerhouse behind the Iron Curtain. While DDR might be slow at implementing the economic reforms (and their leadership would have helped depose Gorby so someone like Danilov to take over)...

Having a much more limited Nuclear exchange would be perfect for a good gaming universe.... a cross between Twilight 2000 and Merc 2000 setting would be alot of fun, and have civilian as well as military role-playing opportunities to shake a stick at. I've been reading Brad Thor novels, and they've got some really interesting plot ideas (i had read The Athena project in 24 hours and the technology stuff in there was very... interesting).

[Raellus]

What's the average reading grade level of an American, Rae How do we rank internationally How do we rank on standardized tests

The system is broken. I can't deny that. Let's slash some more of its funding and see if that helps. All I can do is keep busting my ass to try to help my students learn something while they're in my classroom. If I work hard enough, maybe our nation's standardized test score will go up a little and my pay won't be cut again this year. I should be thankful I haven't been permanently RIF'ed yet. Thanks for the morale boost, Ed.