Mongoose Publishing and Twilight 2000

[cavtroop]

If I was going to start a new T2K campaign with players other than those I have been gaming with for the past 2 decades I would probably use the Reflex system over Gunmaster, that's how good I think it is.

I second this. I seriously like the Reflex system. I don't think any of the generic systems will work well. The one I am most familiar with - Savage Worlds - is exactly the opposite of what I think would work well with this setting. You have one skill for shooting - 'Shooting' that handles all firearms - rifles, pistols, smg, mg, etc. etc. SW lacks the crunch that this setting needs I think.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Rae,

One problem with T2013 was that it wasn't even half a usable product.

From what I gathered, there were serious issues in parts of the vehicle combat system where it tried to mesh with the Reflex system in different ways relating to small arms and light cannon penetration vs light armoured vehicles and initiative. I think there are new rules (linked-to elsewhere in this forum) that iron out these inconsistencies a long time after I bought the main rules.

Tony

I didn't think I was going to be one to defend 2013 but, here goes nothing...

In my opinion this is an unnecessarily harsh criticism of the entire product because you can't really judge the rules if you're simply taking other people's comments on them and haven't actually read them yourself.

The Reflex system is a good solid set of rules that you can scale up or down as needed. Sure it had issues at the start with integration of vehicles but then so did Twilight: 2000 in at least 2nd ed. There's not a lot of new RPGs released in the last 10 years that didn't have minor rules issues here and there.

Just in case anyone sees more here than what I actually mean, I'm not seeking to attack anyone's opinion here, I'm not a fan of the 2013 timeline myself but geez talk about harsh crowd.
The guys did put out a decent stand-alone military RPG, something that very few (if any) other companies are even interested in doing.

Perhaps they should have called it 'Apocalypse: 2013' or called it 'End Date: 2013' or 'Alpha & Omega 2013' or just '2013' or any-damned-thing else - I think the biggest problem here is nostalgia. With the Twilight name attached to it, perhaps some people where expecting it to be exactly like T2k which it could never hope to be simply because the world has changed too much and as I mentioned before, military & post-apoc RPGs are now a minor market in the grand scheme of things.

It needed to be more current so as to attract the next generation of gamers because in reality, the only real market for Twilight: 2000 these days is with older gamers who already have most of what they need to run it. So the company would be reduced to making new adventure modules and with a product that has an appeal to a relatively small audience, you aint gonna make much money out of that.

[Jason]

I have run a T2013 campaign. I have said it before and I will repeat it here; T2013 has the best mechanic for small-unit conflict of any rpg I have ever played. I love T2k 2.2 ed., but T2013 blows that system out of the water. I never had a problem with any of the other rules including vehicle combat (which is admittedly rare).

The creators of T2013 made a serious tactical error when they marginalized the background. The background is weak enough to throw some people, adding a few tweaks made it work for me.

RPG publishing must be an enormous headache. I cannot imagine trying something on that scale.

[helbent4]

I didn't think I was going to be one to defend 2013 but, here goes nothing...

In my opinion this is an unnecessarily harsh criticism of the entire product because you can't really judge the rules if you're simply taking other people's comments on them and haven't actually read them yourself.

SSC,

I think you are mistaken, I bought a copy of the rules and have "actually read them" myself. You are thinking of someone else

As for who I listened to, I had some questions with the rules and figured I should go directly to the horse's mouth. These problems were posted there. In fact, I found a mea culpa from I what i believe were the game designers themselves, about how they tried to adapt T2Ks vehicle combat rules to Reflex and this created unexpected rules conflicts. (Like many things in life, I could be mistaken.) I don't think I'm being unnecessarily harsh if I'm simply agreeing with openly acknowledged flaws.

I agree, perhaps T2013 should have been called something else and therefore it could have been judged on its own terms, instead of using a licence that mostly ended up being ignored. A lot of effort is made in attracting a "new crowd", but my experience with newer gamers is they tend to expect simpler, quicker, more abstract rules and games, even when relating to combat and warfare. Pretty much the opposite of T2013 in general and Reflex in particular, whether or not you think this is good or bad. (Personally, I think there is a lot to recommend Reflex and while I've played and run Dogs in the Vineyard, Shock: Social Science Fiction, Unsung and other indie/avant-garde systems I still prefer a good crunchy game.)

Bringing this back to Mongoose, updating T2013 had demonstrably mixed results. Arguably, some gamers were at least a little alienated while the hoped-for breakthrough with younger gamers that was apparently the whole point of the exercise wasn't altogether achieved. It's not clear to me why if Mongoose were to take a kick at the can they would want to do it in the same way and expect different results.

Tony

[Tegyrius]

It must be hard for a small gaming company to get its product out there among the masses in this day and age. I don't fault 93GS for this situation. I'm sure they were doing the best they could with the resources they had. I think it's symptomatic of the PnP RPG industry as a whole.

I've never been in a position to deal with the business side of operations (always been freelance writing talent, never a "captive" employee), but my understanding is that the game distribution channels have radically contracted over the past decade. I can recall at least three major closures - one that outright destroyed several small publishers whose sole distributor went out of business.

As for who I listened to, I had some questions with the rules and figured I should go directly to the horse's mouth. These problems were posted there. In fact, I found a mea culpa from I what i believe were the game designers themselves, about how they tried to adapt T2Ks vehicle combat rules to Reflex and this created unexpected rules conflicts. (Like many things in life, I could be mistaken.) I don't think I'm being unnecessarily harsh if I'm simply agreeing with openly acknowledged flaws.

I'll own that particular cock-up. This was the intersection of two separate design efforts that I didn't fully test in conjunction with one another before we released.

First was small arms effects on personnel. When we designed this, we went with an all-new damage and penetration formula based on a combination of kinetic energy and cross-sectional area. We calibrated the baseline numbers for a key set of calibers against the expected range of character wound thresholds. Then we set the numbers for body armor so it would equal real-world performance as per NIJ standards. So far, so good.

The problems came when, rather than doing the same thing for heavy weapons and vehicle armor, I tried to keep GDW's 2.0/2.2 values intact to allow easy adaptation of the vehicle guides. Unfortunately, because GDW's small arms damage and armor equivalency scales were different, this created situations where assault rifles could damage, if not outright kill, some AFVs - and a PC wearing Level IV trauma plates had better protection than a Stryker.

If anyone still cares at this point, here's the thread on the 93GS forum where I posted the complete fix. It's also in the Driver's Guide: Czech Your Engine manuscript I released in July.

That's certainly not the only rules hole in Reflex. It's far from perfect and I have a laundry list of things I'd change if I had the opportunity to do a second edition of it.

Bringing this back to Mongoose, updating T2013 had demonstrably mixed results. Arguably, some gamers were at least a little alienated while the hoped-for breakthrough with younger gamers that was apparently the whole point of the exercise wasn't altogether achieved. It's not clear to me why if Mongoose were to take a kick at the can they would want to do it in the same way and expect different results.

The more I think about this, the more I expect Mongoose is going to attempt to cash in on the nostalgia market and apply their existing Trav rules set to a 1.0 or 2.0 timeline. I have no evidence for this belief beyond the fact that I don't think they did a reboot of the Trav timeline. I doubt it'll be successful, but niche products have surprised me before.

- C.

[helbent4]

I'll own that particular cock-up. This was the intersection of two separate design efforts that I didn't fully test in conjunction with one another before we released.

The more I think about this, the more I expect Mongoose is going to attempt to cash in on the nostalgia market and apply their existing Trav rules set to a 1.0 or 2.0 timeline. I have no evidence for this belief beyond the fact that I don't think they did a reboot of the Trav timeline. I doubt it'll be successful, but niche products have surprised me before.

Tegyrus,

Please accept my apologies, I don't want to stir up any more ragging on you or 93SG. Thanks for including the link!

Regarding Mongoose, I think it's a little optimistic to hope that any game based on T2K (pretty much the definition of a realistic, crunchy, detailed military RPG) would somehow appeal to any untapped demographic segment of the market. Mongoose may as well go back to the well if niches are the dominant market reality.

Tony

[Morthrai]

Sure, gone are the days when a gaming company could push any POS game out the door and sell them in a game store around the world. Those days are gone!

Still, I don't think it's unrealistic to expect games that are complete and playable.

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement helbent. Mind you, I am seeing it from the other side for the first time at the moment and man it is hard to get everything right!

[Tegyrius]

Please accept my apologies, I don't want to stir up any more ragging on you or 93SG. Thanks for including the link!

No, you're good. Pointing out that particular issue was a valid criticism of the system and it's a hole I should have plugged shortly after release. Keeping up with errata is part of the job. Or was. Whichever.

Anyway. I'm unlikely to take exception to people pointing out errata issues unless they do it with significantly less tact than you did. My main issue is with people arbitrarily dismissing the system, unplayed and sometimes even unread, because something in the setting beat up their honor students or shaved their dogs.

Regarding Mongoose, I think it's a little optimistic to hope that any game based on T2K (pretty much the definition of a realistic, crunchy, detailed military RPG) would somehow appeal to any untapped demographic segment of the market. Mongoose may as well go back to the well if niches are the dominant market reality.

This entire industry is a niche. No one does this to get rich. Well, some people get in thinking they will and learn painful lessons about the tiny and fickle nature of their target markets. But most of us do it because we're gamers and we have a burning drive to create, not just follow.

Now... from what Matt Sprange has said, Mongoose tends not to go after licenses unless someone on staff is passionate enough about the property to champion its acquisition and drive the subsequent projects. So there may be someone in their shop who'd fit in well here (if he isn't already lurking) and whose vision matches this community's more than the 2013 team's did. I suspect they have a business plan that they think they can make work. I just don't know that I share their optimism right now.

- C.

[Legbreaker]

I suppose the demise of T:2013 must be somewhat like loosing a child. You put a lot of love and effort into raising it the best you can and then, after a short illness you try to stay positive through, it's all over and you find yourself shovelling dirt into it's grave.

[helbent4]

Now... from what Matt Sprange has said, Mongoose tends not to go after licenses unless someone on staff is passionate enough about the property to champion its acquisition and drive the subsequent projects. So there may be someone in their shop who'd fit in well here (if he isn't already lurking) and whose vision matches this community's more than the 2013 team's did. I suspect they have a business plan that they think they can make work. I just don't know that I share their optimism right now.

Tegyrus,

Hey, I would imagine that if Mongoose had someone who went to bat for Traveller, there is someone who likes T2K due to the natural cross-over between the games. There may or may not be cause for optimism, I think there is enough of an established market to break even. We can only hope!

Tony

[helbent4]

I suppose the demise of T:2013 must be somewhat like loosing a child. You put a lot of love and effort into raising it the best you can and then, after a short illness you try to stay positive through, it's all over and you find yourself shovelling dirt into it's grave.

Leg,

Bloody hell, now I want to kill myself.

Worst. Metaphor. Ever.

Tony

[StainlessSteelCynic]

SSC,

I think you are mistaken, I bought a copy of the rules and have "actually read them" myself. You are thinking of someone else

...Tony

Sorry, my mistake. When you used the phrase "From what I gathered...", I understood it as not "I've read it and these are my thoughts..." but as "I've heard this about it..."

[helbent4]

Sorry, my mistake. When you used the phrase "From what I gathered...", I understood it as not "I've read it and these are my thoughts..." but as "I've heard this about it..."

SSC,

Sure, but even if I was going off secondhand knowledge you really took me to task for bringing up known problems that 93GS already publicly copped to themselves (insofar as Tegyrus was speaking for them). If that's "unnecessarily harsh criticism" to you, what, if anything, could possibly constitute fair criticism of T2013

I mean, you know, I implicitly understand the main problem is T2013 was just too awesome and I'm not worthy. Let's just accept that, and move on.

Tony

[Dog 6]

Ah well, your money, your opinion as you say. Just seems strange to me that you have no interest in assessing the Reflex rules at all. You don't have to read those parts of the rule book dealing with T:2013's backstory. Heck, you could even cut that stuff out with a box cutter!

If I was going to start a new T2K campaign with players other than those I have been gaming with for the past 2 decades I would probably use the Reflex system over Gunmaster, that's how good I think it is.

I got around to reading the Reflex rules and I must say I'm very impressed, if its not "the best" its damn close.........