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Originally posted by dragoon500ly
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Another good point. I would also point out that if you were capture in Pact mark vehicle by pact force regardless if you hadn't violated the GC, you would more likely be shot as spies on the spot regardless of the uniform you were wearing at any time of the war. -
I would take it to get out of the area. As for marking I would keep marked as it until I got close to Allied lines if you were heading that way. Then at the last possible moment would I worry about covering Pact ID markers and making NATO correct... If not abandon it once we got nearby and go back to the lines on foot after making sure the BTR was unusable except for maybe spare parts...
Now with that said, I wouldn't be heading to allied line in said vehicle. I would head either East or South. Either way I am sure I would be more likely able to find someone who we could trade it to for some other form of transport out of the area and possible back to Allied lines that wouldn't require our allies to shoot at us as we got close. Many of the troop to the east and south at the time wouldn't worry about the uniform you had to much, they realize if they retain you, you would be another mouth to feed, and wouldn't waste ammo to kill you because their are bigger fish they have to worry about. They may even allow to join them as the local ORMO and accept you as allied for as long as you willing to protect what they control. IMHO.
Another thing that surprise in the US Vehicle guide that the use of the subdue black star to ID a US military vehicle in sharp contrast to white star used in WWII and other wars...Last edited by Abbott Shaull; 12-18-2010, 07:52 AM.Comment
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Actually, you seldom see any star at all. During my time in the Green Machine, the star was only placed on various commander's jeeps, and even then it was always black and rarely was more than 3-5 inches in size.Another thing that surprise in the US Vehicle guide that the use of the subdue black star to ID a US military vehicle in sharp contrast to white star used in WWII and other wars...
As far as tanks went, you were more likely to see small US flags mounted on the antenne, sometimes the Jolly Rodger or a cavalry guideon. Names for the tank (if any) was usually painted on the main gun bore evacuater. You were supposed to use a name that started with your company/troop letter, but you rarely saw this.The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.Comment
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I think taking the vehicle would be the way to go in most cases. I think most people would be fatigued or injuried in some form or another, so walking might be a probelm. I would also leave it marked as Warsaw Pact, because it's still behind Warsaw Pact lines. The only way I think walking would be better is if everyone was in good health, good in woods, or had contacts that they knew they could turn to along the way. Special Operations personel and agents that work with partisans would have the advantage with that.Comment
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Yeah I know what you mean. I don't think I saw one on any the vehicle I seen at Benning or Bragg. It was one of those ironic things I found briefly mention in one of the vehicle guide for version one, in one of the plates that showed a capture vehicle and wondering why they hadn't painted over the former owner stuff and only small star on capture enemy vehicle.Originally posted by dragoon500ly View PostComment
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Abbott,Originally posted by Abbott Shaull View Post
For some reason, the practice that Lee mentioned changed during the Twilight War. That is, it seems to be far more common to mark vehicles than it was in the past. Probably because at least in part there are so many captured vehicles and a lack of IFF.
TonyComment
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Yes, that would seem to be the case. Now what is ironic is having a black star like that against camoflauge pattern wouldn't lend it self to show exactly whose side you were on. Which while looking at the plate is in stark contrast to the various names/slogans that were painted on the various vehicle along with kill markers, in which they were painted in red or white. Which stands out in contrast with the rest of the paint job. Either way if you seen a captured T-72 or any heavily armed enemy vehicle you not going to take the time to scan it to see if it had black star to represent that it belong to your side.
Yeah I understand why the star was black, going back to lessons learned during another war where the bright color against the olive drab green stood out greatly and dead give away to the enemy on who they were facing. It part of the reason why all shoulder patches went subdue on combat fatigues. I am willing to point out that after 1998 both sides would be more willing to sacrifice some tactical advantage in order to make sure what they have in working order doesn't get mistakenly taken out by their own troops. By this time I do see any vehicle that was capture and if parts could be found to place it back in working order by the unit that capture it or one nearby, then by all means it would be used.
Yeah I do remember a lot of times various flags to help id which side vehicle belong too...Comment
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Abbott,Originally posted by Abbott Shaull View Post
True, being hard to see defeats the point of the exercise! As well, you'd think a white star would be better represented by an outline, and a red star with a black star (reflecting the contrast between white and red).
TonyComment
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When I first enlisted in the Army back in 1977, armor vehicle id was taught on a "kill, no-kill" fashion. It always seemed to me to be a bet simple-minded, but I was a green private...
And so things went until the Iranian Hostage Crisis. The Iranians at the time had their army equipped with Western equipment..."no-kills" in other words. Shortly after the start of the crisis, armor id was changed to id the specific vehicle type.
I've always wondered just how much, the "kill, no-kill" training standard influenced the decision not to commit regular military units....
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.Comment
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A lot, I am sure it did. Then again the US military memory is short.Originally posted by dragoon500ly View PostWhen I first enlisted in the Army back in 1977, armor vehicle id was taught on a "kill, no-kill" fashion. It always seemed to me to be a bet simple-minded, but I was a green private...
And so things went until the Iranian Hostage Crisis. The Iranians at the time had their army equipped with Western equipment..."no-kills" in other words. Shortly after the start of the crisis, armor id was changed to id the specific vehicle type.
I've always wondered just how much, the "kill, no-kill" training standard influenced the decision not to commit regular military units....
Even as late 1988, it pretty much the same concept for anti-tank training. We were give outline of various and we had to be close to what it was, and whether we would kill or not kill it. Of course, by this time the Soviets were back on top of the list of possible candidates to fight next.Comment
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It does make sense to the point with various night vision and sighting devices in which you don't see the vehicle but just an outline. Anything used for vehicle ID is lost. It is one of many reasons I alway found the plate offered by GWD amusing.Originally posted by helbent4 View Post
Before I went in I wonder why they didn't have white stars and used black stars. After going through Dragon Gunner School I really understand that either way it quite useless if you were using sights and didn't visually id the vehicle first which is why many gunners had assistant gunner who were suppose to help id target.Comment
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And thus the main reason for the various attempts at designing a means of IDing friendly vehicles through night sights.Originally posted by Abbott Shaull View Post
Give it another two hundred years and they may finally field such a system....then again, why bother! Some senator somewhere needs another billion in pork....why spend it on your nation's soldiers!The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.Comment
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there already is such a system in place. im not gonna go into details online even if all you need to do is a quick google search. but i'll give you a clue the tin roof looking stuf on every vehile down range...Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
...it ain't armor.the best course of action when all is against you is to slow down and think critically about the situation. this way you are not blindly rushing into an ambush and your mind is doing something useful rather than getting you killed.Comment
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Am well aware of that tin roof looking stuff and I may have a better idea of what and how it is made of! But it has the same drawbacks of all IR-IFF gear, if the vehicle is moving towards you or accross your front...you have very little real chance of IDing the vehicle. Because of its fundlemental flaw...if it works in all aspects, then the enemy can confirm your ID too!Originally posted by bobcat View Post
Now waving a pirate flag from your antenne!
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.Comment
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Yeah 100 years on modern battlefield and they haven't figure out to keep vehicles from being killed by friendly fire....Originally posted by dragoon500ly View PostAm well aware of that tin roof looking stuff and I may have a better idea of what and how it is made of! But it has the same drawbacks of all IR-IFF gear, if the vehicle is moving towards you or accross your front...you have very little real chance of IDing the vehicle. Because of its fundlemental flaw...if it works in all aspects, then the enemy can confirm your ID too!
Now waving a pirate flag from your antenne!Comment
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