Captured Vehicles & Battlefield Recognition Symbols

[Panther Al]

Hehheh, speaking of flying flags, when I was over there I, like many, flew a flag from the radio aerial, what made it funny was when we rolled past some west islander crooks standing by their busted ASLAV- the flag was given to me to fly from my SO- A New Zealand one. The double takes they gave when an A2 was flying it was priceless.

Almost as good as when the Regimental commander stepped into my training room back in the states. Had a pic of my SO, her daughter, and Her Majesty. I was always being asked what army I thought I was in for some odd reason...

[dragoon500ly]

Shoot! One of my platoon sergeants back in 85 had served eight years in the British Army, then followed his wife stateside and joined the US Army. Nothing like a thick Welch accent on the radio to have the rest of the troop going "whatd'fuck did he say"

And yes he had a ton of "Jones the Soldier, Jones the Butcher, Jones the Spy" jokes!

As well as several "Jones and the sheep" that had us straights wondering about what was going on back in them there hills at night!

[bobcat]

Hehheh, speaking of flying flags, when I was over there I, like many, flew a flag from the radio aerial, what made it funny was when we rolled past some west islander crooks standing by their busted ASLAV- the flag was given to me to fly from my SO- A New Zealand one. The double takes they gave when an A2 was flying it was priceless.

Almost as good as when the Regimental commander stepped into my training room back in the states. Had a pic of my SO, her daughter, and Her Majesty. I was always being asked what army I thought I was in for some odd reason...

i get asked similar questions from time to time. more specificly the conversation goes like this: "SPC Bobcat why is ther a jolly roger flying from your mount"
"sir thats not a jolly roger, thats the jolly bobcat."
"whatever, wat do you think this is the navy"
"you mean we don't get to loot and pillage every village we go through"
"..."
oddly enough everyone in my unit that wasn't my FSNCO, or my FSO loved having me around.

[Raellus]

Recognition Symbols in T2K

OK, more specifically, does canon specify how MilGov and CivGov units in CONUS recognize blue and op-forces I don't recall this being mentioned in any of the modules that I'm familiar with. I'm assuming that they're still flying the same [50] Stars and [13] Stripes. Are other flags in use IIRC, the U.S. Army Vehicle guide shows both factions using the same black star device painted on AFVs and the like. Does canon mention any other recognition devices

Along the same lines, in Europe, with so much mixing and matching of weapons, uniforms, and vehicles, how do units recognize friend or foe Brassards, helmet bands, vehicle markings Given the materials available, seems like there wouldn't be that many distinct variations that could be seen and/or recognized from a distance. Seems to me that IFF would become extremely dicey.

I'm sure this is come up before but I don't think we've ever had a thread dedicated to this topic. I'd like to read your thoughts on this subject.

[Targan]

It's only my opinion, but I think MilGov and CivGov would both seek to use flags, markings and symbols as close to pre-war standard as possible. Both claim to be the legitimate government, therefore both would tend to use the regulation pre-war symbols and markings to enhance their legitimacy while at the same time avoid introducing new/non-standard symbols and markings for fear that something new might be viewed as illegitimate. There is power in symbols, no small part of which is derived from their history.

[Rainbow Six]

I agree 100% with Targan. I think one of the cornerstones of both Milgov and Civgov's claim to be the legitimate Government of the United States would be to continue to use all the pre War symbols, especially the US flag, without any modification whatsoever. I'd say any side that did modify the flag in any way, shape, or form would be handing the other side a massive propaganda coup.

[pmulcahy11b]

And it's rife with opportunities for a GM's exploitation of the mistakes caused by those common symbols.

[stormlion1]

OK, its nice that both Governments are claiming to be the legitimate and will probably order there symbols to remain as they are, but for the troops in the field I can see little things being added to there equipment to allow for ID on the field. Flags on antennas, Striped Paint on barrels or chassis. Little things like that would be what the troops in the field might add to help recognition.

[kato13]

I honestly don't think it is a huge issue, due to force on force combat being infrequent.

From the V1 referees guide.

Officially, forces of the two governments refrained from violent confrontation, but there were sporadic local clashes over key installations, occasional bloody coups within military units, and numerous assassinations and "dirty tricks" by rival intelligence agencies.

[DigTw0Grav3s]

I can see conventional unit recognition symbols causing problems. For example, what about bandits using captured vehicles and uniforms I think different regions would have different modifications to their IFF, with different patterns and styles rotating out after large operations.

[Raellus]

I'm not suggesting anything as drastic as adopting variations on the national flag, and I understand that combat between Milgov and Civgov units would be limited and relatively low intensity, but I imagine that both sides would want their respective units to be able to identify friend and foe, and for the civilian population to be able to differentiate between the factions as well.

"That unit that helped your community reestablish running water That was one of ours."

Conversely:

"That unit that requisitioned all of your methanol without payment That was clearly one of theirs."

It's a PR/legitimacy issue as well as a tactical/military one. No clear visual distinction of any kind doesn't seem to make much sense. At the beginning of the American Civil War, when both sides were using various blue uniforms, friendly fire incidents were alarmingly common. Grey was adopted by the Confederate forces as much out of practical tactical considerations as it was for any kind of political statement.

For T2K- at least in CONUS- I'm thinking about something like a big block C painted on Civgov vehicles and a big block M for Milgov. White arm brassards for one side, black for the other.

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[kato13]

The "M" and "C" while logical remind the people that you are only one of two factions. Such a symbol would in some ways declare an equality between the factions.

My thinking is that each side might emphasize certain American symbols (which correspond to their loyalty). Perhaps the eagle looking at the arrows for MILGOV and the Presidential seal for CIVGOV. That way you are identifying yourself without providing legitimacy to the other.

If you are a civilian in a CIVGOV controlled area you are not asking "What does that 'C' mean", but you are reassured by seeing the seal of the president. It is a subtle difference but i think it is an important one.

[stormlion1]

There is a problem with the "C" and "M" argument though. They actually don't call themselves that. They are all claiming to be the natural US Gov't so at best there calling themselves Administrations or Authority or some other buzzword.

[Raellus]

The "M" and "C" while logical remind the people that you are only one of two factions. Such a symbol would in some ways declare an equality between the factions.

My thinking is that each side might emphasize certain American symbols (which correspond to their loyalty). Perhaps the eagle looking at the arrows for MILGOV and the Presidential seal for CIVGOV. That way you are identifying yourself without providing legitimacy to the other.

If you are a civilian in a CIVGOV controlled area you are not asking "What does that 'C' mean", but you are reassured by seeing the seal of the president. It is a subtle difference but i think it is an important one.

I understand your point about the equality implied by the M & C. However, if neither side is using any kind of simple field recognition symbol, their identical uniforms and equipment would also imply equality. I agree with your point on the use of different supplemental symbols (C and M were just the first things that popped into my head), but it would be impractical for troops in the field to have to paint a complex seal, for example, on their vehicles. Simplicity and long-range recognition would be important under field conditions.

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[kato13]

I understand your point about the equality implied by the M & C. However, if neither side is using any kind of simple field recognition symbol, their identical uniforms and equipment would also imply equality. I agree with your point on the use of different supplemental symbols (C and M were just the first things that popped into my head), but it would be impractical for troops in the field to have to paint a complex seal, for example, on their vehicles. Simplicity and long-range recognition would be important under field conditions.

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As conflict is rare I was more thinking about things like HQ supplemental flags and propaganda elements (like adding symbols to leaflets).

Taking it another step I could see the respective leaders focusing on themselves. In propaganda you might see President Munson or General Cummings names being a focus. Coincidentally that would reverse the C and M nomenclature.