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  • It always amuses me that the British SAS pretty much returned to their roots during the Gulf War - a clusterfuck in the form of B20, followed by going to much more successful Land Rover columns behind enemy lines - just like in Africa during WW2!

    On the subject of light armour, there is some worry that if the Future Rapid Effect System is adopted by the British Army, we will lose the capabilities our CVR(T) family gave us. FRES is planned to be our future medium weight forces, comprising both tracked 'specialist vehicles' (recce, engineering, medical, etc) and wheeled 'utility vehicles' (APCs, etc), originally with a requirement to be C-130 portable, but that has since been dropped as unworkable. Of course, given the current state of the defence budget, this programme may not ever see the light of day, or at least, will be cut back significantly.

    Regardless, while medium weight forces have their place, they will result in the loss of our light armour, which does offer quite a few useful capabilities. For a start, unmodified CVR(T) vehicles are light enough that not only are they easily carried in a C-130, but they can be underslung on a Chinook. There have also been reported incidents of the extremely low ground pressure of these vehicles making them unable to set off anti-tank mines, as well as enabling them to traverse extremely soft terrain (the Scorpions and Scimitars deployed to the Falklands proved this, and one of the regrets of the task force was that they did not take more). While the 30mm cannon on a Scorpion is not well-suited for fighting heavy armour, it is a good system for supporting light infantry, especially mounted on a platform that can get a lot of places. The downside in the current operational context, of course, is the vulnerability to IEDs.

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    • It amazing how everyone wants C130 air transport capability and yet it seems to be first things that gets dropped when they start adding other things for the vehicle to do.

      Yeah, well that is one of the things that US Army let slide by the way side. With an emphasis on Heavy Forces and very little money spent on Light and Medium forces until after the fact, even after having twenty years to come up something... *shrug*

      It can't be fun bing a light unit being sent to a UN Peacekeeping Mission knowing that many of the other units you will be working with would be better equipped than you.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abbott Shaull View Post
        It amazing how everyone wants C130 air transport capability and yet it seems to be first things that gets dropped when they start adding other things for the vehicle to do.

        Yeah, well that is one of the things that US Army let slide by the way side. With an emphasis on Heavy Forces and very little money spent on Light and Medium forces until after the fact, even after having twenty years to come up something... *shrug*

        It can't be fun bing a light unit being sent to a UN Peacekeeping Mission knowing that many of the other units you will be working with would be better equipped than you.
        Remember the design requirements for a tank:

        1) It must be capable of taking out an enemy tank with one shot.

        2) It must be able to withstand enemy antitank fire.

        3) It must be able to be transported by a C-130.

        Pick two.
        The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
          Remember the design requirements for a tank:

          1) It must be capable of taking out an enemy tank with one shot.

          2) It must be able to withstand enemy antitank fire.

          3) It must be able to be transported by a C-130.

          Pick two.
          Hey that list is unfair... Because you can't have option one or two along with option 3...lol So you are stuck with options 1 and 2...lol

          Comment


          • Of course you can although you have to pull back a bit on #2. It's called an armoured humvee with a TOW.

            Oh, you want tracks on it... I'm sure we can come up with a kit to replace the wheels. Should only cost about a billion dollars to develop and then half a million for each unit to produce...
            If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

            Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

            Mors ante pudorem

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
              Oh, you want tracks on it... I'm sure we can come up with a kit to replace the wheels. Should only cost about a billion dollars to develop and then half a million for each unit to produce...
              They've done that already as an experiment. I have a picture somewhere...
              I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes

              Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
                They've done that already as an experiment. I have a picture somewhere...
                Hmm, ok, scratch that. A billion dollars to refine the prototype (aka paint it a different shade of green) and prepare it for production....
                If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                Mors ante pudorem

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
                  Of course you can although you have to pull back a bit on #2. It's called an armoured humvee with a TOW.

                  Oh, you want tracks on it... I'm sure we can come up with a kit to replace the wheels. Should only cost about a billion dollars to develop and then half a million for each unit to produce...
                  Well first they have to make an Armored Humvee that really Armored...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abbott Shaull View Post
                    Well first they have to make an Armored Humvee that really Armored...
                    It stops a 9mmP doesn't it That's armoured...
                    If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                    Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                    Mors ante pudorem

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
                      It stops a 9mmP doesn't it That's armoured...
                      Oh that the protection I want to ride in and feel safe in. Even the unarmored Humvee would stand a decent chance of stopping this round...lol

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
                        Hmm, ok, scratch that. A billion dollars to refine the prototype (aka paint it a different shade of green) and prepare it for production....
                        Geez, I can tell you never had any experience with the defense contractors...

                        You stamp out a tin-plate addition that is bolted somewhere to break up the outline, then scrap the last four digits of the serial number off and replace with higher numbers...and then charge a 75% cost overrun due to the "speed" with which you developed the "new" prototype.

                        These are the experts that convinced the Navy to buy adjustable wrenches, "silenced for submarine service", they simply dipped the handle in vinyl....cost the company all of $5.00 each for the coating and another 20.00 for "off-the shelf" wrenches and charged the Navy $500.00.....
                        The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
                          Geez, I can tell you never had any experience with the defense contractors...

                          You stamp out a tin-plate addition that is bolted somewhere to break up the outline, then scrap the last four digits of the serial number off and replace with higher numbers...and then charge a 75% cost overrun due to the "speed" with which you developed the "new" prototype.

                          These are the experts that convinced the Navy to buy adjustable wrenches, "silenced for submarine service", they simply dipped the handle in vinyl....cost the company all of $5.00 each for the coating and another 20.00 for "off-the shelf" wrenches and charged the Navy $500.00.....
                          What supplier contractors aren't suppose to make a profit either. Remember they have labor cost too..lol

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abbott Shaull View Post
                            What supplier contractors aren't suppose to make a profit either. Remember they have labor cost too..lol
                            What labor costs They farmed the contract to a company based in China...

                            The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
                              What labor costs They farmed the contract to a company based in China...

                              Now they do now, but there was time you would only find American made product in the hand of the troops...lol

                              Then again many of these contractor have their suppliers shipping them supplies with x% of reduction of pricing every year for the lifetime of the contract. Much like the Auto Industry force down their Suppliers throat even though cost such as shipping, material, utilities, and what not usually went up while they were force to keep their wages low to be compete for the few contracts. While they kept paying their exec big money, their line worker quite well because the Unions felt they needed bloated wages. While the people working at many of their low end suppliers could barely make living let alone afford to buy new vehicle.

                              Don't get me started on the just in time production penalties that were enforce when shipments were late not due to their supplier, but still they were the ones who paid for shutting down a line. Granted there was time in the Auto Industry where at some plants they had inventory for vehicles that they had made a generation before at times. It one of the many reason at one time, it wasn't a problem to find parts for vehicle that were 20+ years old. Their inventory of parts was that huge, where now you have trouble finding parts for anything vehicle that is over life-time of it Warranty. We had 1995 Chevy Lumina Mini Van but we couldn't find parts as simple as track for the door windows. Ugh.

                              Sorry for getting on the soap box. Stepping off it now.

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                              • Originally posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
                                They've done that already as an experiment. I have a picture somewhere...
                                Paul,

                                Stick a TOW II on this and we're done:



                                Tony

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