Fiddle's Green

[dragoon500ly]

I nominate that last it as the understatement of the month.

The 3rd, when we rolled in, from what I saw of not only Iraqi units, but Kuwaiti ones as well, could easily manhandle units three times its size, and thats without the Air Force/Navy air strikes. Send a couple of Heavy ACR's, back them with a pair of carriers in the gulf, and they would own anything they wanted.

LOL!

I have never understood why the equipment for a ACR was never pre-loaded...it was always a Marine Brigade or an Airborne Task Force...Iraq, at one time, could field more MBTs than anyone else in the region...so expecting that a couple of light brigades would serve as much more than a speed bump always seemed the height of stupidity. After all, if the equipment is there, than all ya need is to fly the crews in, and wasn't that what was expected of the lights

If I had been Saddam, sure as hell, the Coalition would not have been given months to build up and ship heavy divisions in and bring in air wings. After all, the last time paratroopers went toe-to-toe with an armored division, they got their asses handed to them! TOWs and Dragons are nifty little toys and they sure beat the hell out of 6-pounder antitank guns and PIATs, but like any ATGM, they have a lot of drawbacks and I would not want to see what happened when a half-way decent armordivision commander, grins and yells "GO FOR IT!"

Sitting here typing this, I have an ex-zoomie telling me about how the Air Farce won Desert Storm. If you have the time to fly in the air wings and ship the bombs and missiles in, then the ole AF can be a real decent equalizier...but if Saddam had the balls, the olnly thing he would have had to worry about would have been a couple of Carrier Air Wings initially, and if he had used his air force, then the 82nd and Marines would have fought under a neutral sky at best...and then it would have been lights against heavys....and what a fight that would have been!

[Abbott Shaull]

The sad thing only ACR that could of been touch before the fall of the Berlin Wall was the one based out of TX. I forget if it was the 2nd or 3rd, always confuse which one was where without looking it up. I wanna say the 3rd ACR, anyways they were the only ACR the US could move without NATO throwing a shit fit. For that matter any unit of the III Corps being used elsewhere caused some members to worry. Especially the one who realized of the 5 Divisions that were part of the III Corps only the two that had forward deployed Brigades had on paper their entire force, with the other three Division relying on round-out Brigades.

[Panther Al]

LOL!

I have never understood why the equipment for a ACR was never pre-loaded...it was always a Marine Brigade or an Airborne Task Force...Iraq, at one time, could field more MBTs than anyone else in the region...so expecting that a couple of light brigades would serve as much more than a speed bump always seemed the height of stupidity. After all, if the equipment is there, than all ya need is to fly the crews in, and wasn't that what was expected of the lights

If I had been Saddam, sure as hell, the Coalition would not have been given months to build up and ship heavy divisions in and bring in air wings. After all, the last time paratroopers went toe-to-toe with an armored division, they got their asses handed to them! TOWs and Dragons are nifty little toys and they sure beat the hell out of 6-pounder antitank guns and PIATs, but like any ATGM, they have a lot of drawbacks and I would not want to see what happened when a half-way decent armordivision commander, grins and yells "GO FOR IT!"

Sitting here typing this, I have an ex-zoomie telling me about how the Air Farce won Desert Storm. If you have the time to fly in the air wings and ship the bombs and missiles in, then the ole AF can be a real decent equalizier...but if Saddam had the balls, the olnly thing he would have had to worry about would have been a couple of Carrier Air Wings initially, and if he had used his air force, then the 82nd and Marines would have fought under a neutral sky at best...and then it would have been lights against heavys....and what a fight that would have been!

Never understood why he stopped: A 24 hour stand-down would have doctrinally correct with the pact style doctrine they used, in fact, I assumed that was what was going on. Even 72hrs may have been possible, but past that, there was no chance to go south. One of the many what-if's I like to think about is what-if he followed doctrine and swung south 24-36 hours after he swept the last of the Kuwaiti resistance away

[dragoon500ly]

Never understood why he stopped: A 24 hour stand-down would have doctrinally correct with the pact style doctrine they used, in fact, I assumed that was what was going on. Even 72hrs may have been possible, but past that, there was no chance to go south. One of the many what-if's I like to think about is what-if he followed doctrine and swung south 24-36 hours after he swept the last of the Kuwaiti resistance away

This has been wargamed, both officially and by wargamers, the results have been surprisingly even. In every game, if Saddam goes for broke after nailing Kuwait, he's well into Saudi Arabia before the US can intervene effectively. I've seen the coastal strip on the Saudi side of the PG go down, the capital fall, in one game I've even seen Mecca fall to the Republican Guard. Most of the games have Saddam taking the key oil fields AND managing to hold them in the wake of an Coalition counterattack. And the wargames always wind up with a light brigade drawing a line in the sand. And then getting smoked when the Republican Guard goes for broke. Maybe its the wargammer's last round mentality...but dropping a shitload of heavy artillery on paratroopers and then following up with three armored divisions on a narrow front......well, George Patton always claimed that the best use for enemy soldiers was greasing his tank's tracks....just don't think he meant it this way!

[Panther Al]

Agreed: Field day for a few weeks until we can get enough heavy stuff (Be it armour or air) to really slow him down or stop him - and I'd hate to be one of the airborne speedbumps flown in those first few days. My question is: With Saddam going south, and taking lumps eventually from allied forces, would Iran go west seeing a chance to bite off a chunk of Iraq

[dragoon500ly]

Agreed: Field day for a few weeks until we can get enough heavy stuff (Be it armour or air) to really slow him down or stop him - and I'd hate to be one of the airborne speedbumps flown in those first few days. My question is: With Saddam going south, and taking lumps eventually from allied forces, would Iran go west seeing a chance to bite off a chunk of Iraq

The primary question is just how much and how fast heavy stuff could have been transported in, remember that it took almost 20 days to ship armor and supplies from CONUS and get them through the Suez Canal, and if Saddam had been able to close the canal down, even if only for a few weeks....the transit time around the Horn of Africa would have added another 15 days easy...the only hope of slowing down Saddam would have been if Egypt had been able to push through two or more corps into the fight, something that would have been very hard to pull off in real life.

As for navy air....the carrier in the Med could have been pulled through the canal within the first days of the fighting, PacFlt could have chopped one and possibly two carriers so the initial support would have been 3 CAWs, maybe 200 combat aircraft While the Air Force could have shifted 2-3 wings, but its the logistic support that would have been the real stumbling block...in the pre Desert Storm days, it flat out didn't exist in the size needed to take on Iraq at the time.

So with Saddam and the Coalition engaged in a nasty dog fight, would Iran have been able to push. I doubt it. Iran took severe losses in equipment and manpower.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah, well it one of those things. I think Persian Gulf War, Saddam had several things to worry about.

1st off he always wanted to appear to be much stronger than he forces really were.

2nd off there was alway exposing himself from attack from his other neighbors. Iran had grudge, of course they were still in rebuilding phase after their battles with the Iraqis. Then there was always fear of Turkish Troops in the north who would of course been in pursuit of those troublesome Kurds. Syria even though both were ruled by Parties with the same name, they weren't on the most friendly of terms, as was proven with a Syrian units in the coalition troops. Jordan wasn't much of friend.

3rd the further he moved from his supply depots the more exposed his forward units would of been. Saudi is big country with lot of nothing. It like places out between the Mississippi River and Rockies Mountain in the US, but much more barren.

4th I think the resistance movement that was put up in his newly acquired province even took him by surprised and didn't want make run into Saudi to have to tie down units doing the same.

5th if he taking out Saudi, he may as well take the other City-State that populate the southern Persian Gulf coast to eliminate places where the coalition to gain foot holds to attack him.

6th possibility he wasn't totally acting on his own. Strangely enough Russia or China didn't veto the UN actions against him. I think much like Korea and Vietnam there were still people in the Russia who wanted to see what the Americans and her allies would respond. It also gave them chance to test some of their equipment even though it wasn't as good as they had for themselves and see how it performed. Russia was still trying to find out how strong NATO was, and was objecting to so many of their former client States and Republic in their efforts in joining the Alliance. After seeing it took 6 month for the US and the coalition to get enough ground forces to take eject the Iraqis, along with the fact that National Guard round-brigade would still out of the game too. Then that little Battle of Kafji (sp) was little too set up to test the Marines and the coalition forces with them.

The trouble thing is if you look at the list. It seems like he had all the card in his hands for at least the first week after his initial movement. After that he had another two weeks of freedom of moving at his own choosing, yet he allow the US and the coalition to build up a strong defensive position before he even sent a 'Recon-en-force' into Saudi. There were plenty of things, that don't make sense. The one thing he had with Kuwait and Kuwait City was a decent port to the Gulf. Maybe he figure trying to take much more would be waste of time effort, more so than trying to build up his defenses. In the end this was part of the downfall, because instead of dispersing his force out of much larger are, they were concentrated in very limited area, which in turn made it just that easier for the Coalition Air unit to pound the crap out his ground troops and take the fight out of them, before the ground fighting had even started.

The thing is he had several things to worry about if he pushed on, the further he push the further away the Republican Guard would have to be removed from areas where his regime needed them more for control.

Just some thought on that.

[dragoon500ly]

Well the Saddam-into-Saudi-Invasion will always be one of the great what ifs. There is no doubt that by pausing after taking Kuwait was one of the biggest mistakes of the campaign. If he had gone for broke, the most likely result would have been his being able to seize the east coast of Saudi Arabia and even over running some of the smaller Gulf oil states. Strategically, this would have given him control of well over half of the world's known oil reserves, as well as most of the major water distelliation plants in the region. This would have given him a much better chance of keeping his ill-gotten gains. This would also have thrown a major monkey wrench into any operations to through him out.

One of the things that a lot of people forget is that Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states provided a lot of POL and purified water to the Allied forces, with most of this capability in Iraqi hands, it would have added much more to an already over-stretched supply line.

So Saddam sweeping into Saudi would have been a nightmare scenario for CENTCOM.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well the Saddam-into-Saudi-Invasion will always be one of the great what ifs. There is no doubt that by pausing after taking Kuwait was one of the biggest mistakes of the campaign. If he had gone for broke, the most likely result would have been his being able to seize the east coast of Saudi Arabia and even over running some of the smaller Gulf oil states. Strategically, this would have given him control of well over half of the world's known oil reserves, as well as most of the major water distelliation plants in the region. This would have given him a much better chance of keeping his ill-gotten gains. This would also have thrown a major monkey wrench into any operations to through him out.

One of the things that a lot of people forget is that Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states provided a lot of POL and purified water to the Allied forces, with most of this capability in Iraqi hands, it would have added much more to an already over-stretched supply line.

So Saddam sweeping into Saudi would have been a nightmare scenario for CENTCOM.

Yeah as matter of fact, if he would had kept advancing hew would of had gain control of large section of Saudi, most likely any Gulf State who even thought about objecting too loudly, they would be gobbled up too, just like Kuwait.

I still think Moscow, and fear of over-extension, along with the memories of the Irar-Iraq War all played factor on why they stopped where they did. Why else would you allow the opposing force over 6 months to prepared and get it shit together so they can steam roll over you. Due to your waiting for them to steam roll, your army goes from the 5th largest in the world to shadow of itself. Also the agreement that Saddam was able to negotiate for a cease-fire is too much of co-incidents that will probably be debated for years. For most of the people who really know the truth about the top people in the Iraqi Government in 1990-1991 are either dead or if they are lucky enough be alive are in prison.

[Panther Al]

You know, all of the really odd things about the gulf war that made it what it was, certainly qualifies it in my mind for one that causes the most WTF moments when researching it.

[Abbott Shaull]

You know, all of the really odd things about the gulf war that made it what it was, certainly qualifies it in my mind for one that causes the most WTF moments when researching it.

Yes I know what you mean. Like why invade the smaller of two countries that you share oil fields with, then sit and wait for your a$$ to be kicked.

I mean who lets coalition combine Air power fly over with little or no resistance.

It did show some weakness of our equipment starting with the Patriot Missile system in that as anti-missile system it was somewhat effective, but if you didn't destroy the warhead, all you have done is cause someone else to have headache.

Or the fact that you send SAS team deep into Iraq in an area where Intelligence failed to notice an Iraqi Armor Division was located at defending Scud launch sites, but also showed that the equipment they were issue could fail too under certain conditions too. Also the team was ill prepared for the weather they faced too. The team had many strike against them, it could of easily been a situation where the entire team could of been lost.

Even the 2003 with the Information Minister out on the river claiming that American were hundred of miles from Baghdad even while their was M1 tanks on the other side of the river in plain sight behind him.... Both wars makes you wonder WTF for several reasons.

[Targan]

Or the fact that you send SAS team deep into Iraq in an area where Intelligence failed to notice an Iraqi Armor Division was located at defending Scud launch sites, but also showed that the equipment they were issue could fail too under certain conditions too. Also the team was ill prepared for the weather they faced too. The team had many strike against them, it could of easily been a situation where the entire team could of been lost.

They should have sent the Aussie SAS.

[Abbott Shaull]

They should have sent the Aussie SAS.

As it was, General Schwarzkofp didn't want to use them, he didn't trust from his time in Vietnam. It took the second-in command of the Coalition Forces to convince him to even think about using the Special Forces and Special Air Services. The person is question was British SAS trained soldier who knew their capabilities. He was the one who push for expanding their use.

In part it was much like various US Operations in the 1980 in which more and more Special Operations units were given bigger piece of the action because they had to show their capabilities. Only this time they didn't go way over board like they had in Operation Just Cause and Operation Urgent Fury. In those operation many time and again afterwards the Special Operational units were sent on mission that other units should of taken care of. Like the Seals taking down airfield that is usually reserved for the 75th Ranger Regiment units. Just Bravo Zero Two just had blind stupid military luck that happens.

[dragoon500ly]

As it was, General Schwarzkofp didn't want to use them, he didn't trust from his time in Vietnam. It took the second-in command of the Coalition Forces to convince him to even think about using the Special Forces and Special Air Services. The person is question was British SAS trained soldier who knew their capabilities. He was the one who push for expanding their use.

In part it was much like various US Operations in the 1980 in which more and more Special Operations units were given bigger piece of the action because they had to show their capabilities. Only this time they didn't go way over board like they had in Operation Just Cause and Operation Urgent Fury. In those operation many time and again afterwards the Special Operational units were sent on mission that other units should of taken care of. Like the Seals taking down airfield that is usually reserved for the 75th Ranger Regiment units. Just Bravo Zero Two just had blind stupid military luck that happens.

There was a Ranger battalion in country as well as most of Delta Force, all tied up in the vital task of providing bodyguards and security for His Imperial Majesty Norman "The Pimple" Schwartzkopf. At least the Special Forces Group was allowed to do (mostly) what they are trained to do, organize and train local resistance and liaision for foreign military units.

[Abbott Shaull]

There was a Ranger battalion in country as well as most of Delta Force, all tied up in the vital task of providing bodyguards and security for His Imperial Majesty Norman "The Pimple" Schwartzkopf. At least the Special Forces Group was allowed to do (mostly) what they are trained to do, organize and train local resistance and liaision for foreign military units.

Yeah I always liked the one or two Delta operator who were the one people were suppose to see when he was out and about. That isn't the job I would of wanted, the #1 or #2 target for anyone wanting to kill him. Yeah, I am surprise they limited it to only Battalion of Rangers. Then again they did need to keep something in Reserve considering the usual Reserve Force were sent over first due to the speed they could be deployed...*Shrug*

Yeah he was allowing the Special Force Group to act as force multipliers, but as for using the Special Forces for some the other vital mission they could carry out, Schwartzkopf was of the mind of the Marine Corps for a long time. Any Light Infantry man could pull off the same job.