Fiddle's Green

[Adm.Lee]

I think I'm missing something here. Is the Army planning to replace all Bradleys with Strykers Or most, or just some

FWIW, I'm in agreement with the majority-- wheeled APCs are great assets for peacekeepers and light cavalry.

[dragoon500ly]

True enough: But only if there is enough propellent to make use of the longer barrel. I am tempted to say that there is judging by the muzzle flash I've always seen, but...


I don't know for certain.

Except that the new 120mm still uses NATO standard 120mm ammo. What happens is that a significant amount of propellent isn't burned up during firing, the L/55 simply burns up more of the propellent hence more oomph to the projectile.

[dragoon500ly]

I think I'm missing something here. Is the Army planning to replace all Bradleys with Strykers Or most, or just some

FWIW, I'm in agreement with the majority-- wheeled APCs are great assets for peacekeepers and light cavalry.

Its not so much as the Army is planning on replacing heavy armor with Strykers, its that the Army has gutted the heavy armor force, replacing it with Strykers, to such an extent that there is serious doubt that the Army can go one-on-one with any heavy force.

While Strykers are a badly needed updating of the light divisions, I strongly feel that de-mobbing heavy divisions and ACRs in order to field even more Stryker brigades is a policy that the US Army will eventually come to regret. The only questions are when and where it will bite us and most importantly how many soldiers will be killed or injured because our "leadership" has decided that a souped up RV is the combat vehicle of the future. I guess those with numerous stars on their shoulders have watched too many reruns of Stripes.

My five cents...

[Panther Al]

Except that the new 120mm still uses NATO standard 120mm ammo. What happens is that a significant amount of propellent isn't burned up during firing, the L/55 simply burns up more of the propellent hence more oomph to the projectile.

I was hoping that was the case: I didn't see the Germans making either a tube that was longer than the charge would allow, or making special rounds for the long tubes.

[Legbreaker]

The RAAC Memorial and Army Tank Museum at Pukapunyal in Victoria has a display showing the effects of various rounds on armour plate which had been cut from a naval ship in the process of decommissioning. Everything from a 2 pounder up through an early guided missile and 105mm AP.
I think there's about a dozen plates one behind the other with about an inch or so between them. Some rounds only penetrate one or two plates, while the larger ones bore through several feet of hardened armour before stopping.
It's a shame they don't have those plates (which are located just outside the front door) on their website.

http://www.armytankmuseum.com.au/i-vd.htm

On the other hand, one of the friendly staff might take a few photos of them if you were to ask nicely.

[ArmySGT.]

I think I'm missing something here. Is the Army planning to replace all Bradleys with Strykers Or most, or just some

FWIW, I'm in agreement with the majority-- wheeled APCs are great assets for peacekeepers and light cavalry.

The Stryker Brigades are based on the Armored Cavalry Regiment. A force rounded out with Mech infantry, and supporting Artillery, Armor, Air Cav, and support units.

It is meant for the Rapid Deployment Role. As in get some assets there on the ground (Airhead) while Heavy Units go by sea (Beach head). All the originators have retired, and mission creep has set in.

The Brigades are meant to be modular, plug n play. So since it is a prebuilt package. You could put three Stryker Brigades together and call it a Stryker Division. Send one ahead of the Heavies but as part of a Heavy force structure.

The though is and I will quote from the Cavalry here " Gets there firstest, with deh mostest". That a well rounded force with good weapons, good speed, outstanding coordination is better than a Light Infantry armed with ATGMs waiting for M1s that will be transported by ship arriving in 30 days.

Saddam could have killed the 82nd and the 101st if he had invaded Saudi Arabia as soon as they arrived. History would be remarkably different if Saddam were an able Commander.

[pmulcahy11b]

Saddam could have killed the 82nd and the 101st if he had invaded Saudi Arabia as soon as they arrived. History would be remarkably different if Saddam were an able Commander.

We were quite aware of that at the 82nd, and we were expecting a hard fight from arrival. The rumors were that Saudi Arabia was next on Saddam's agenda. and main reason we sat on Green Ramp for four days after being called in was because they were debating a combat drop into Kuwait. Which would have been interesting for me if they did an immediate combat drop; being new to the Division, my 8th jump would have been a combat drop.

[Panther Al]

If you take a look at a earlier post I made on the uses of such a brigade like the Stryker, you would see 'speed bump' listed.


And you are right- while I will quibble on the good firepower bit - I think you are being generous, such a role is some that the brigade aught to be good at. Sucks to be in said unit, but there it is.

[Adm.Lee]

Its not so much as the Army is planning on replacing heavy armor with Strykers, its that the Army has gutted the heavy armor force, replacing it with Strykers, to such an extent that there is serious doubt that the Army can go one-on-one with any heavy force.

While Strykers are a badly needed updating of the light divisions, I strongly feel that de-mobbing heavy divisions and ACRs in order to field even more Stryker brigades is a policy that the US Army will eventually come to regret. The only questions are when and where it will bite us and most importantly how many soldiers will be killed or injured because our "leadership" has decided that a souped up RV is the combat vehicle of the future. I guess those with numerous stars on their shoulders have watched too many reruns of Stripes.

My five cents...

I understand that part, I'm just looking for numbers-- how many brigades have gone over to Strykers, vs. mech & armor Are Armor battalions being converted, and if so, is it temporary/wartime or permanent

[dragoon500ly]

I understand that part, I'm just looking for numbers-- how many brigades have gone over to Strykers, vs. mech & armor Are Armor battalions being converted, and if so, is it temporary/wartime or permanent

Here is what the Army looks like, at least as of 2008:

1st Armored Division: 2 heavy, 1 Stryker. 1 infantry and 1 aviation brigade
1st Cavalry Division: 4 heavy and 1 aviation brigades
1st Infantry Division: 2 heavy, 2 infantry and 1 aviation brigades
2nd Infantry Division: 1 heavy, 3 Stryker and 1 aviaiton brigades
3rd Infantry Division: 3 heavy, 1 Stryker and 1 aviaiton brigades
4th Infantry Division: 3 heavy, 1 infantry and 1 aviation brigades
10th Mountain Division: 4 infantry and 1 aviation brigades
25th Infantry Division: 2 Stryker, 1 infantry, 1 airborne and 1 aviation brigades
82nd Airborne Division: 4 airborne and 1 aviation brigades
101st Air Assault Division: 4 air assault and 2 aviation brigades
170th Infantry Brigade: heavy
172nd Infantry Brigade: heavy
173rd Airborne Brigade: airborne
2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment
3rd Stryker Cavalry Regiment
11th Armored Cavalry Regiment: the two bn OPFOR at Fort Irwin NTC

that's a total of 17 heavy; 9 Stryker; 9 infantry; 6 airborne, 4 air assault and 11 aviation brigades.

Since this copy of the Army Times Green Book came out, four of the heavy brigades have been converted to Stryker and there are plans to convert another three heavy into Stryker by 2012. That is a total of 10 heavy and 16 Stryker brigades....and this does not include the NG divisions.

And these will be permanent changes.


Now you can see the concern of the old time tankers....

[Adm.Lee]

Here is what the Army looks like, at least as of 2008:


that's a total of 17 heavy; 9 Stryker; 9 infantry; 6 airborne, 4 air assault and 11 aviation brigades.

Since this copy of the Army Times Green Book came out, four of the heavy brigades have been converted to Stryker and there are plans to convert another three heavy into Stryker by 2012. That is a total of 10 heavy and 16 Stryker brigades....

Right, thanks. What do you mean by "infantry"-- do we have leg brigades again

[Panther Al]

*hrms*

You know, while packing up for a move to the DC area (the transfer is coming through, yay! Maybe I can find a group finally!), I have found that you need to throw things away every now and then when I found a old Fall 1987 Issue of "The Hook".


Jeesh.

[dragoon500ly]

Right, thanks. What do you mean by "infantry"-- do we have leg brigades again

I've been having problems getting an exact answer. The infantry brigades are essentially light infantry formations, the issue is whether there are 3 bns or just 2 bns plus their assigned FA and spt bns. I've also seen articles that state that these formations may be upgraded to Stryker as well. I have seen nothing "official" saying yea or nay as to this.

The heavy brigades are supposed to be made up of either 2 armd and 1 mech or vice versa (these are 3 company battalions) supported by a SP FA and a support battalion.

The Stryker brigades are 3 battalion with a towed FA and a support battalion.

The airborne and air assault brigades are both 3 battalion, towed FA and support battalion.

[Adm.Lee]

OK. I'd understood that all brigades were dropping to 2 line battalions (armor, mech or Stryker) and a Stryker cavalry squadron, and that the light infantry battalions were the first ones to go to Stryker.

Where is the 170th IB(M) That's a new one to me.

IMO, a split of half/half between heavy and light brigades works for me, but I would try to keep the heavies together in the same divisions. Counerinsurgency/peacekeeping/LIC division commanders aren't as needed as they are in high-intensity combat, so I think the command cohesion of the heavy divisions is pretty important.

[dragoon500ly]

OK. I'd understood that all brigades were dropping to 2 line battalions (armor, mech or Stryker) and a Stryker cavalry squadron, and that the light infantry battalions were the first ones to go to Stryker.

Where is the 170th IB(M) That's a new one to me.

IMO, a split of half/half between heavy and light brigades works for me, but I would try to keep the heavies together in the same divisions. Counerinsurgency/peacekeeping/LIC division commanders aren't as needed as they are in high-intensity combat, so I think the command cohesion of the heavy divisions is pretty important.

The 170th is based at Baumholder, Germany

As to just what the final makeup will be....considering that there are 13 heavy brigades, and converting one of the three battalions to Stryker......

Anyhow, here are the eight NG divisions:

28th Infantry Division (PA & FL NG): 1 heavy, 2 infantry, 1 Stryker and 1 aviation brigades.

29th Infantry Division (VA & MD NG): 1 heavy, 1 infantry and 1 aviation bdes

34th Infantry Division (MN & IA NG): 1 heavy, 2 light, 1 cavalry and 1 aviation bdes

35th Infantry Division (KS & NE NG): 3 infantry and 1 aviation bdes

36th Infantry Division (TX NG): 1 heavy, 4 infantry and 1 aviation bdes

38th Infantry Division (IN, MI & OH NG): 2 infantry and 1 aviation bdes, 1 ACR (really a heavy brigade)

40th Infantry Division (CA NG): 1 heavy, 3 infantry and 1 aviation bdes

42nd Infantry Division (NY, NJ, VT, & ME NG): 3 infantry & 1 aviation bdes.

This info is to be taken with a 25lb bag of salt. The latest Congressional Records refer to the NG losing all of its divisions and reorganizing into 39 brigades. While the Regular Army infantry brigades appear to be reorganizing, the NG infantry brigades are formed of 2 infantry and 1 Stryker battalions.

There are also a variety of Surveillance Brigades with the NG, these appear to be based on a cavalry squadron, reinforced with GSR and drone capability.