Soviet 746th Tank Regiment

[helbent4]

Official records are really skimpy on this, the best source would be the Signal Corps photo collection, where there are several photos of Panthers with the Allied star painted on.

Records for the Germans do show the use of captured Crusaders (turrets removed and used to move fuel/ammo to front line units) and Stuarts (Rommel's HQ escort unit appears to have used over a dozen).

Lee,

I can see the use of captured armour in recognition and training roles. Regarding the conversion of Panthers to allied tanks, several were made to look like M10 tank destroyers with wood applique and allies paint schemes.

As an anecdote, the Germans used captured Shermans as reccee tanks on the East Front (captured from the Russians who were supplied them via lend-lease). I saw a picture of a captured M5 Stuart, clearly painted to show the Austrian cross.

Tony

[Abbott Shaull]

Ah the lend-lease program was sure source of many of Germans capture vehicles on the Eastern Front. If there a country more stubborn about if-it-not-invented-here attitude it would be the Russians/Soviets.

[dragoon500ly]

Lee,

I can see the use of captured armour in recognition and training roles. Regarding the conversion of Panthers to allied tanks, several were made to look like M10 tank destroyers with wood applique and allies paint schemes.

As an anecdote, the Germans used captured Shermans as reccee tanks on the East Front (captured from the Russians who were supplied them via lend-lease). I saw a picture of a captured M5 Stuart, clearly painted to show the Austrian cross.

Tony

The photos of Panthers made to look like M-10 tank destroyers are photos of the attempt by Panzer Brigade 150 to infiltrate the American lines. As Skorzeny said about the attempt, "it would have confused green American soldiers in the night, from a distance...."

The original question was about Allied use of captured German vehicles. The Germans used anything and everything they captured, there are numerous pics of captured Allied equipment, as well as mentions of German battalions equippede with captured T-34s. Like all captured equipment, it was used until it broke down and then was abandoned.

[helbent4]

Ah the lend-lease program was sure source of many of Germans capture vehicles on the Eastern Front. If there a country more stubborn about if-it-not-invented-here attitude it would be the Russians/Soviets.

Abbott,

I would tend to disagree, the Soviets were desperate for any equipment and pretty much used it all if they could. Including M4 Shermans, M3A1 scout cars, M5 halftracks, Cromwells, Valentines, Bren/Universal carriers, M10 TDs, Aircobras, many, many trucks, etc.

Perhaps if they had better industrial production they would have been more picky, but the Soviets used pretty much anything they could get their hands on! Maybe they didn't like a lot of non-Russian equipment at least partly due to Chauvinism, but they used it all. They were so needy, units of the Karelian front salvaged 12x lend-lease M3 Stuarts from the deck of a sunken cargo ship and pushed them into service.

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/LL_general1.htm#Start

The Germans then captured some of these vehicles and used them for the same reason. Not specifically because the Russians didn't like lend-lease equipment and therefore abandoned or otherwise gave them to the Germans!

Tony

[helbent4]

The photos of Panthers made to look like M-10 tank destroyers are photos of the attempt by Panzer Brigade 150 to infiltrate the American lines. As Skorzeny said about the attempt, "it would have confused green American soldiers in the night, from a distance...."

Lee,

I guess that's not that unrealistic for the situation, considering they could well encounter green American troops in less-than perfect visibility. While Skorzeny was of course an impressive soldier in his own right, I wonder how regular American soldiers would have done

Tony

[dragoon500ly]

Lee,

I guess that's not that unrealistic for the situation, considering they could well encounter green American troops in less-than perfect visibility. While Skorzeny was of course an impressive soldier in his own right, I wonder how regular American soldiers would have done

Tony

If memory serves correctly, Panzer Brigade 150 was committed into the fighting on the northern shoulder and ran into elements of 1st Infantry and 3rd Armored Divisions and was promptly shot to pieces by bazooka teams and the most formidable weapon on the Western Front, US Artillery. These was part of the attack on Eisenborn Ridge that you hear descriptions of "artillery pieces standing virtually hub to hub." A lot of people don't realize just how much effect regular artillery had played in stopping the German advance.

[Abbott Shaull]

A lot of people don't realize just how much effect regular artillery had played in stopping the German advance.

The Soviets/Russians have understood this. It one of the points they seemed to love making that no matter if it is at Division level on up. That there seemed to be way more 'Batteries' of various type of field artillery, multi-missile, and heavy mortars than there were Rifle Companies in MRD or Tank Companies in Tank Division. This before you add the various other Batteries that would populate a Division such as Air Defense and Anti-Tank and so on...

[dragoon500ly]

The Soviets/Russians have understood this. It one of the points they seemed to love making that no matter if it is at Division level on up. That there seemed to be way more 'Batteries' of various type of field artillery, multi-missile, and heavy mortars than there were Rifle Companies in MRD or Tank Companies in Tank Division. This before you add the various other Batteries that would populate a Division such as Air Defense and Anti-Tank and so on...

There was a sorta-joke running around about how the Soviets had replaced "Love of God" with "Love of Artillery"...needless to say, the Russians have always enjoyed damned-capable guns...but German officers who had experience on both fronts, always claimed that as bad as it was to be shot at by the Soviets, being under American artillery was much worse because we had so much of it and we used so much ammunition.

During the post-war interviews, when asked what stopped the Germans at Eisenborn Ridge, the opinion of several German officers was the assembly of so much American artillery...

[James Langham]

US Artillery

There was a sorta-joke running around about how the Soviets had replaced "Love of God" with "Love of Artillery"...needless to say, the Russians have always enjoyed damned-capable guns...but German officers who had experience on both fronts, always claimed that as bad as it was to be shot at by the Soviets, being under American artillery was much worse because we had so much of it and we used so much ammunition.

During the post-war interviews, when asked what stopped the Germans at Eisenborn Ridge, the opinion of several German officers was the assembly of so much American artillery...

US Artillery wasn't always plentiful so much as well used, the communications abilities added to the Time on Target technique for simultaneous arrival of shells made it deadly. another forgotten aspect is the cartography service resulting in a better ability to use predictive fire.

[Abbott Shaull]

That and in the US Army any unit could call for Fire. While in the Soviet Army the use of the artillery is more or less planned out.

[James Langham]

If memory serves correctly, Panzer Brigade 150 was committed into the fighting on the northern shoulder and ran into elements of 1st Infantry and 3rd Armored Divisions and was promptly shot to pieces by bazooka teams and the most formidable weapon on the Western Front, US Artillery. These was part of the attack on Eisenborn Ridge that you hear descriptions of "artillery pieces standing virtually hub to hub." A lot of people don't realize just how much effect regular artillery had played in stopping the German advance.

Bear in mind the Brigade was committed to fight as "normal" armour after the failure of Operation Greif. How it would have fared if used as plans is open to conjecture.

My belief is that used correctly they may well have achieved at least a partial success. If you are in a US position and stragglers are coming through you will not take the time to check the next batch of clearly US marked vehicles. Even if you do and they look odd are they just a variation on a vehicle you haven't seen before Even if you have doubts you will be unlikely to fire until they are MUCH closer than normal.

[dragoon500ly]

Bear in mind the Brigade was committed to fight as "normal" armour after the failure of Operation Greif. How it would have fared if used as plans is open to conjecture.

My belief is that used correctly they may well have achieved at least a partial success. If you are in a US position and stragglers are coming through you will not take the time to check the next batch of clearly US marked vehicles. Even if you do and they look odd are they just a variation on a vehicle you haven't seen before Even if you have doubts you will be unlikely to fire until they are MUCH closer than normal.

But the rub is that PzBde150 was never committed as intended

Operation Grief, for all of the writing up in post-war histories and the Hollywood treatment of it the few movies on the Bulge, was a failure. While it did cause disruption in the American rear, most of this was caused by GIs ignoring the proper passwords and making up thier own tests to "verify" other GIs. This was the only true success of Grief. They didn't manage to blow any key bridges, they were unable to misdirect the flow of reinforcements, most of the jeep teams were either killed or captured and later shot, only a handful ever made it back to German lines. For the number of personal it lost vs. the successes it gained, Grief was an utter failure.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

There was a sorta-joke running around about how the Soviets had replaced "Love of God" with "Love of Artillery"...needless to say, the Russians have always enjoyed damned-capable guns...but German officers who had experience on both fronts, always claimed that as bad as it was to be shot at by the Soviets, being under American artillery was much worse because we had so much of it and we used so much ammunition.

During the post-war interviews, when asked what stopped the Germans at Eisenborn Ridge, the opinion of several German officers was the assembly of so much American artillery...

I recall something from an Ambrose book (Citizen Soldiers, IIRC) about the Battle of the Bulge that a former German officer related. He said (and this is not verbatim, mind you, but essentially) that they'd overrun an American supply depot and as they drove through it in his (captured) Jeep they started passing pallet after pallet of 105mm shells. Just 105s. He realized that this hastily abandoned dump of shells was bigger than the village he'd grown up in, and at that point he realized that the war was utterly lost.

[Raellus]

I'm still looking for the exact reference but there was an American infantry division that used all kinds of captured German vehicles to increase its mobility and give it a competetive edge during the race into German territory during the last couple of months of the war. It earned a nickname like "travelling circus" or something like that. IIRC, they even used a captured BF-109 to scout ahead of the vehicle column. I'll post more detailed info as soon as I can track it down.

[dragoon500ly]

I'm still looking for the exact reference but there was an American infantry division that used all kinds of captured German vehicles to increase its mobility and give it a competetive edge during the race into German territory during the last couple of months of the war. It earned a nickname like "travelling circus" or something like that. IIRC, they even used a captured BF-109 to scout ahead of the vehicle column. I'll post more detailed info as soon as I can track it down.

There are a lot of references to the use of captured trucks (kubelwagens were a special favorite). GIs were also known to be fond of jackboots, MP-40s and Panzerfausts! Its references to the use of captured German tanks that are short.

Another favorite target of the front line divisons were the Army Air Force bases, especially since the airdales always seemed to have large numbers of jeeps. Any static unit, such as an antiaircraft battalion, could count on light-fingered GIs helping themselves to jeeps, trucks, the occasional quad .50 mount.

And if the target unit was a Quartermaster Battalion......well, let's just say that when the woke up, the would often find their motor pool stripped bare.