I swear, my alt timeline will have something about Florida

[HorseSoldier]

I really never understood why Florida gets dissed my everyone. I have lived there my my whole life, and it is one of the easiest states to survive in. Lots of food if you know what you are looking for, and with all the growth, there is a ton of stuff out there to keep you going. Look at how Florida was basically the breadbasket of the CSA during the Civil war, when only a few interior counties were being farmed. Its easy to live here, as long as you can fish, ID some wild edibles, and build basic snares. Thats all from me.

Florida without air conditioning is an apocalypse in and of itself . . .

More seriously, I agree that Florida is an easier place than many to make a go of things with a significantly reduced technology base. That's a plus.

Being full of people who mostly have no clue whatsoever about how to make that work, though, is a death knell in an apocalypse scenario. Starvation and the social disruption and violence it would fuel would tend to reduce Florida to a working definition for "Howling Wilderness" after the nukes fall. Some rural populations might manage to hang on in the face of urban/suburban surge, but they'd be few and far between.

Those who did manage to hang on, as well as those who come into the state from elsewhere in the post-2000 era would probably be able to more rapidly redevelop the state than a lot of places (provided the politics don't interfere), but circa 1999-2000, Florida would be one of the more terrifying places to find yourself in North America. New America's set up in the state, as nasty as it appears to be, is probably a big step up from roving bands of marauders with a penchant for casual cannibalism and xenophobic surviving farmers and such who'd have survived by being even harder and colder than the roving gangs of man eaters.

[helbent4]

Some rural populations might manage to hang on in the face of urban/suburban surge, but they'd be few and far between.

New America's set up in the state, as nasty as it appears to be, is probably a big step up from roving bands of marauders with a penchant for casual cannibalism and xenophobic surviving farmers and such who'd have survived by being even harder and colder than the roving gangs of man eaters.

HS,

Thankfully, casual cannibalism simply doesn't happen in the real world, even in the face of famine. This is a very well-loved (perhaps a little too well-loved) post-apoc theme and a handy way to demarcate the "orcs". Likewise the mythical "urban/suburban surge" where the city folk descend on the countryside and warfare to the death ensues. These are taken as articles of absolute faith by survivalists and the post-apoc genre in general, but I have my doubts it would go down much like that.

Tony

[HorseSoldier]

Likewise the mythical "urban/suburban surge" where the city folk descend on the countryside and warfare to the death ensues. These are taken as articles of absolute faith by survivalists and the post-apoc genre in general, but I have my doubts it would go down much like that.

It isn't really debatable that when you pull the technology rug out from under modern societies and their agricultural and distribution systems that major urban areas become untenable. So those folks have to go somewhere.

I agree that this likely would not start as ravening hordes pouring out of urban areas, though it might end that way. It would likely start as shown in T2K, with an attempt to move urban populations closer to the means of agricultural production. Unfortunately, with the petroleum inputs modern agriculture depends on stripped out of the equation, agricultural productivity will plummet to the point that just supporting the local population will be an uncertain proposition.

And that likely plays out well before someplace like Florida has been able to fully empty its urban areas to sustainable levels . . . and so a second wave of hungry and desperate urbanites heading out into the countryside is a definite possibility.

Thankfully, casual cannibalism simply doesn't happen in the real world, even in the face of famine.

Casual is a bit of hyperbole, but cannibalism certainly does happen in the face of famine and starvation. If you add in a base population that lacks any significant awareness of any sort of direct subsistence strategies, like most urban populations in modern societies (or put another way, the bulk of the population in all modern societies), and also the utter collapse of established social structures you've got conditions that would lead to widespread cannibalism by desperate people. A lot of places in post-nuke America and Europe would be somewhere between "20th century communist agrarian reforms" and "stranded arctic expedition," and cannibalism -- most likely primarily opportunistic scavenging of those already dead and less common active predation -- would certainly be occurring.

[helbent4]

I agree that this likely would not start as ravening hordes pouring out of urban areas, though it might end that way. It would likely start as shown in T2K, with an attempt to move urban populations closer to the means of agricultural production. Unfortunately, with the petroleum inputs modern agriculture depends on stripped out of the equation, agricultural productivity will plummet to the point that just supporting the local population will be an uncertain proposition.

HS,

You are absolutely right!

I should have been more clear that I find the usual portrayal of this process typically incorporates nasty undertones of class, cultural and/or racial warfare, if not outright themes. I mean, hey, no one pretends the kind of post-apoc fiction I'm thinking of is considered particularly subtle or tasteful.

Casual is a bit of hyperbole, but cannibalism certainly does happen in the face of famine and starvation.

most likely primarily opportunistic scavenging of those already dead and less common active predation -- would certainly be occurring.

Again, I agree.

There is an important qualification, though, in that the cannibalism that does occur is almost always of the scavenging kind. Predation sometimes may happen, but when it does it's of the criminal sort where individuals are acting out a pathology as a serial killer, and not for survival (although a source of protein would probably aid their survival). There are reports of criminals who kidnap and kill their victims, then pass them off as meat to unsuspecting customers (or people too hungry to ask any questions).

There is also cannibalism used as a deliberate terror weapon (along with rape and mutilation) but that's not what we're talking about here.

Tony

[sglancy12]

Eric,

Could be a coincidence, most likely. Maybe the author was from Florida and incorporated some local characteristics and groups

Tony

Tom Mulkey wasn't just a Floridian and Vietnam Vet, he living in St. Petersburg at the time he was writing for GDW. I suspect he might have been aware of the existence of any groups of re-enactors in the area and could very well have included them as a tip-of-the-hat to a real group. GDW often discouraged referencing real life people or groups for legal reasons, but I doubt if the editors at GDW (up in Normal IL) would have gotten that particular in-joke.

I myself always felt that the Broken Joes of the Bay Pines VA Hospital in Urban Guerilla were inspired by his own struggles with PTSD.

I had the pleasure of playing Twilight 2000 with him a couple of times and quizzed him pretty relentlessly about many of his writing projects for GDW, particularly about stuff that may have ended up on the cutting room floor.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[helbent4]

I myself always felt that the Broken Joes of the Bay Pines VA Hospital in Urban Guerilla were inspired by his own struggles with PTSD.

I had the pleasure of playing Twilight 2000 with him a couple of times and quizzed him pretty relentlessly about many of his writing projects for GDW, particularly about stuff that may have ended up on the cutting room floor.

Scott,

Amen to that, and I think it would be cool and appropriate if the Broken Joes had some kind of deeper connection to his own life and struggles.

Tony

[HorseSoldier]

HS,

You are absolutely right!

I should have been more clear that I find the usual portrayal of this process typically incorporates nasty undertones of class, cultural and/or racial warfare, if not outright themes. I mean, hey, no one pretends the kind of post-apoc fiction I'm thinking of is considered particularly subtle or tasteful.

Ah -- I get your point now, and yeah, sorry if my initial post sounded a bit too rooted in survivalist fantasy and such.

[Cdnwolf]

Hmmm with all those snowbirds wiped out... means all those rich houses up in Canada now sitting empty....

How about bandits take over Cindrella's castle and make it the base of their operations....

And more importantly... what about all those crocs running free now!!

[helbent4]

Ah -- I get your point now, and yeah, sorry if my initial post sounded a bit too rooted in survivalist fantasy and such.

HS,

No need to apologise, probably something of an overreaction on my part. Please accept my own apologies!

A recent article characterised this and other tropes as "nuke porn", complete with metaphorical "money shots" (detailed descriptions of atrocities, nuclear attacks, cannibalism, etc.). Cannibalism is all-too often a kind of lazy shortcut for moral degeneration and the collapse of civilisation. Cannibals are like "orcs" or zombies, bestial subhumans to be liquidated without guilt or remorse.

Getting back onto topic, I was reading of Trump's Mar-a-Largo estate in Palm Beach Florida.

"In 1985, Donald Trump paid $10 million for the estate, which contained 33 bathrooms, three bomb shelters and a nine-hole golf course. Ten years later, he converted it to a private club with a spa, tennis and croquet courts, a new ballroom and beach club. Current initiation fees are $200,000."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/home_garden/content/home_garden/epaper/2009/04/18/a1f_fh_castles_web_0418.html

In the larger sense, if you or anyone lives in Florida then by all means, run a game there! I can't emphasise how fun it is running a game in your home state or province, and especially your own city or near where you live. I'm running a PbP game set in my home town of Vancouver, and when I want to I can go out and have a look at the physical geography. One of the players lives close by and every once in a while we meet up for coffee and check things out, take photos, do a "walk-through" of an area to gain a better understanding for offensive or defensive operations, or just to go over an engagement for amusement. ("Okay, the claymore would have been set up there, behind the Hydro pole... later, the biker takes off down the alley there, Andy is standing here, turns, puts two aimed shots into his back and brings him down.")

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

In the larger sense, if you or anyone lives in Florida then by all means, run a game there! I can't emphasise how fun it is running a game in your home state or province, and especially your own city or near where you live.

I've always had this outside idea of doing a module based here in San Antonio, especially since it was occupied by Soviet and Mexican forces. Call it Remember the Alamo or something like that. Never really got around to it.

[helbent4]

I've always had this outside idea of doing a module based here in San Antonio, especially since it was occupied by Soviet and Mexican forces. Call it Remember the Alamo or something like that. Never really got around to it.

Paul,

Do it! Doooo iiitttt.... (shakes fist menacingly like Homer Simpson).

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

Paul,

Do it! Doooo iiitttt.... (shakes fist menacingly like Homer Simpson).

Tony

It's not going to happen. I don't have enough waking hours during the week where my brain is engaged enough to do it. Except for certain days when I take a Nuvigil (which keeps me awake by suppressing sleep receptors and hormones and boosting my levels of norepinephrine and dopamine), it's not unusual for me to sleep 14-20 hours a day, and I can't take Nuvigil very often because it has its own undesirable side effects. (Damn antipsychotics!) It's the price I pay for not being a total loon.

[Legbreaker]

...the price I pay for not being a total loon.

What's this "not" rubbish you're on about

[helbent4]

It's not going to happen. I don't have enough waking hours during the week where my brain is engaged enough to do it. Except for certain days when I take a Nuvigil (which keeps me awake by suppressing sleep receptors and hormones and boosting my levels of norepinephrine and dopamine), it's not unusual for me to sleep 14-20 hours a day, and I can't take Nuvigil very often because it has its own undesirable side effects. (Damn antipsychotics!) It's the price I pay for not being a total loon.

Paul

My wife has depression and takes medication, so to a degree removed I'm familiar with living with mental health problems. (I read your website and am familiar with your personal struggle to that extent.) It would be nice if you did and I encourage you strongly, but in a real sense this is a technical issue, it can't be helped.

Tony